Noah

[andrew]

Aronofsky has a new pic out. I know that some folks in this community are a fan of his work so up this post goes. I am going to use this post, if nobody objects too strongly, to write all i know about that story. It's something i spent a lot of time investigating and i've never really talked about it. First, let me say for those of you who don't know me that i don't identify myself as a Christian and haven't for over 30 years. I was raised secularly and couldn't really tell you what a church was when i was sixteen, let alone wonder about god. I think though, as far as i can remember, that i've always had this strange feeling that something was very much wrong on this planet, and that , that feeling goes right back to childhood. Now, to be fair, there was a brief period of time in my early 20's when i did identify with evangelical Christianity, but a year or so after sensing the corruption within that institution, i became what i now call an independent. I am still this way today; spiritually and politically.

Please be aware that very little that i post here will be from my imagination directly, most everything will come from the history of human literature on this mythology. Now i'm quite sure i hear Julian's voice in the noosphere saying, ' Andrew, this is just silly," well, perhaps, but this has been a part of my path, Aronofsky choose this subject matter, and without seeing the film, i can reasonable guess that it will not reflect what is said in these books. 

It should be noted, that at the time Jesus lived, The Book of Enoch was  part of the religious canon. Most people within that community believed strongly in those stories as far as my study of history shows, and that Jesus quoted from these stories a number of times, mentioning that his return would be surrounded by events that were just like what happened in those days. I'll certainly return to this later. 

Now, i am not really interested in challenging histories orthodoxy on humanities past .That is not what this is about, but what i do think is somewhat possible though, is the idea that prior to the development of the written word, history gets a little bit murkier. By saying this, i am not suggesting there was a global flood, i am just suggesting that things are a little more unsure the farther back one goes from the written word. Obviously, this premise would be throughly attacked by historic fundamentalists; i don't care!

Okay, i am going to stop here for now, so The Book of Enoch and the story of god and angels! lol The first place to start on these myths………….

[13w6cecaz7s7h]

hello andrew

i have no idea

i haven´t even seen the film

i was more talking with you and not so much with this aronsky

you seem to indicate a belief in bible people being a little too real , maybe i am mistaken

generally a lot of americans have this notion that the bible sort of speaks of a real history like as of moses

really lived had had let his people really out of egypt some 3000 years ago. thats all nonsense which has been proven to be just that : nonsense and fairy tales

the bible always has been a human construct with a mainly political purpose , to create a history and story for the people of jerusalem, that little backwater village in the mountains . pretty insignificant and powerles ,squeezed between powerfull states like egypt and assyria for example. this state building function worked exidingly well and so the roman emperor decided to steal it for his own purpose in a slightly modified more open form, hence state christianity enfolded from above.

in any case , the rest is just conjecture upon conjecture , spinning tales nothing much else ."god" is an invention , even the american god . i actually enjoyed your link to the gnostic dude , shows nicely how complicated humans can and have been when it comes to inventing reason for their existence. as long as we are clear that there is no ....ähem , absolute truth anywhere to be found here , hey , we are free to invent whatever .

so i am just reacting to your perceived seriousness . you seem take this bible stuff for awfully real.

the cure for that (especially with the bible ) is a good dose of scientific atheistic cold archaeology. it works wonders for curing your dis -ease , belief me , just take the medicine recommended and see how you feel : ))

be well mm

[andrew]

Hey there, mm. Please read the thread carefully and you will find that i said that my belief is that all religious writings are human constructs- therefore completely fallible ; non historical, full of myth, fable, allegory, symbolism and possible unknown spiritual code. I was raised non theistic and don't feel anyone is compelled to believe in god. But in my opinion, these are all different issues than whether god exists or not. I get that many people today choose to believe that god does not exist and i have no problem with that and also know that non theistic people are sometimes and, more often; more ethical and caring than believers. But really, the talking monkey is 150 years out of the plow and in my opinion, because of that, it may be best to still concede the possibility of god; and not abandon the idea altogether. It should also be obvious that i don't have a problem with the notion of a post metaphysical god, but in this thread i wanted to lay out more along the lines of an alternative metaphysics. But people would have to put their bias' aside and read what i am writing carefully.

Just like  Pagel's and Armstrong i've done my own research, too ( as a non academic). In this thread i offer for posterity a different version of god. One that is admittedly tied to the person of Jesus; the existence of angels , but the last place i would advise any one to look for truth there is in religion. In this thread, i call the worlds religions the left hand path - the way of corruption. Having said this, it's not completely true that all the worlds religious books are useless. 

[andrew]

Also, mm, i believe that everyone is born non-theistic. So non theism is a completely natural condition. Now as a person grows and possibly seeks god (although one doesn't have to seek god) one may find god. At that point, the person will decide one of two choices in relation to god. The right hand path of love, compassion, egalitarianism, non-judmentalism towards the status of other peoples souls, treating others with dignity and respect (allowing for justice within criminal codes of unhealthy behaviour), etc. 

The left hand choice leads to where we are today with the worlds religionists: bigotry, greed , delusion, etc. Moreover, the left hand path is a protocol of god and is not the result of a war in heaven (Alex J. misunderstanding of god on prison planet), etc.

[13w6cecaz7s7h]

in this case dear andrew what do these three letters g o d refer to ?

 for me so far all you have presented are ...various ideas ....so are ideas ,some of them amount to

this 3 letters  you seem to hold in awe :g  o  d and only in this order because you so gar haven´t used the same ...reference to this arrangement of the the same 3 letters:  d   o    g

in any case whats meta physics other then ahem more ....ideas ?

are ideas something ..more real ? for you ?

[andrew]

Here are some papers on referents and signifiers :

http://journals.lub.lu.se/index.php/STK/article/viewFile/7102/5825

http://www.fuminyang.com/michelle/Lessl_Definition.pdf

The God/Jesus Matrix posits that god likes smart people, too!

[Layman Pascal]

Doggone it!

It is perhaps not quite right to say that everyone is "born non-theistic".

That understanding is appropriate in comparison to social doctrines which can be taught. It is very attractive to our assimilation of Eastern esoteric lineages and to our sense that the Divine is something what we mature into. But there are many aspects of neuro-psychology which suggest that we construct our sense of identity via the conscious or unconscious organizing principle of an Other. So to experience the Apex and/or Total form of Reality as if it were an Other Person seems to be traced upon the most fundamental layers of the psyche.

Neither theistic nor non-theistic interpretations are "most primary". The corresponds to the integrative model in which 1st, 2nd and 3rd person grammar indicate basic existential modes of being. Any of them can become more clear, conscious and powerful as we grow and inspect them and combine our experience with streams of learning from others.

[andrew]

Please take that loosely as a way to make a point and not to see it as an assertion in any kind of pre/trans ideological quarrels. The God Jesus Matrix presuppose a 'god seed' in all humans which is why it presupposes dignity and respect for all humans and gods house the earth.

Next:

One of the source books i came across pre-internet was E. Pagel's, Adam,Eve, and the Serpent. In it, i found someone who thought somewhat like me--Clement of Alexandria, who espoused egalitarianism, moral freedom, and personal responsibility.  Also, someone named Justin who was raised within the roman tradition and converted to Christianity. This was 100 or so years after Jesus, and i have found no record, to my knowledge, of any supernaturalism at the time. From what i can gather, people converted- for the most part- because they were somewhat amazed that these folks believed so strongly and were willing to die for their beliefs. 

Anyway, guess what ole Justin believed? Yes, this story of angels mating with humans. Now what's interesting to me about this is that there is a clear evolution of the story. No where did i read that Justin saw giants; but rather, he came to see the roman establishment as the offspring of these angels; and certainly, the roman establishment worshipped the gods! So, within the literature it appears the phenomenon has altered as far as how it looks and appears over time. 

On the megaliths: if angels exist one of the things they are certainly aware of is the motion of the sun and the moon and the stars. Most of the megaliths are in auspicious places as far as their position aligning with cosmic phenomenon. We know that one of the abilities Jesus had was the ability to counteract gravity. These two knowledge sets could explain how seemingly archaic people were able to build and align these amazing structures all over the globe. It seems these megaliths were built in a rather narrow timeline in human history and then stopped. Perhaps, this phenomenon coincided with one of the recurring eras of human / angel interaction. One last point here, i find it incredulous that E.T. had the technology to come to this earth just to play with stones. The angel scenario is more likely here-out of the two- because angels always have to work within what we call on this site stage parameters. 

Another strange point surrounding all these possible happenings is the idea that one particular group of people were untouched by these events. I should think it more likely that if these beings exist, then,  to my way of thinking, they infected all human institutions. There  has always been something very unsettling about how quick Christian people are to judge another human being to eternal torment. They almost seem to relish this idea. In my opinion, these people really have no idea what they are suggesting. Further, the genocides and atrocities of church history and religion in general speaks for itself, arguably alluding to the events of which i speak.

Okay, i hear ya! God doesn't exist! Angels don't exist! Well then, there is similar mass hallucination going on here spanning millennia. And really, i'm not all that prone to hallucination!

[andrew]

I should make a point also of mentioning that this story was systematically shut down by the Roman church as Constantine took power and hasn't really resurfaced until somewhat recently as far as i can tell. This scenario is also completely different than the one Constantine set up with god having an arch nemesis named Lucifer who is challenging gods 'authority' ( in truth, not really the right word). The story that successfully conquered the globe for well over 1000 years and is still very much intrenched within American Evangelicalism with it's eternal torment doctrine.

[13w6cecaz7s7h]

andrew said:

Please take that loosely as a way to make a point and not to see it as an assertion in any kind of pre/trans ideological quarrels. The God Jesus Matrix presuppose a 'god seed' in all humans which is why it presupposes dignity and respect for all humans and gods house the earth.

Next:

One of the source books i came across pre-internet was E. Pagel's, Adam,Eve, and the Serpent. In it, i found someone who thought somewhat like me--Clement of Alexandria, who espoused egalitarianism, moral freedom, and personal responsibility.  Also, someone named Justin who was raised within the roman tradition and converted to Christianity. This was 100 or so years after Jesus, and i have found no record, to my knowledge, of any supernaturalism at the time. From what i can gather, people converted- for the most part- because they were somewhat amazed that these folks believed so strongly and were willing to die for their beliefs. 

Anyway, guess what ole Justin believed? Yes, this story of angels mating with humans. Now what's interesting to me about this is that there is a clear evolution of the story. No where did i read that Justin saw giants; but rather, he came to see the roman establishment as the offspring of these angels; and certainly, the roman establishment worshipped the gods! So, within the literature it appears the phenomenon has altered as far as how it looks and appears over time. 

On the megaliths: if angels exist one of the things they are certainly aware of is the motion of the sun and the moon and the stars. Most of the megaliths are in auspicious places as far as their position aligning with cosmic phenomenon. We know that one of the abilities Jesus had was the ability to counteract gravity. These two knowledge sets could explain how seemingly archaic people were able to build and align these amazing structures all over the globe. It seems these megaliths were built in a rather narrow timeline in human history and then stopped. Perhaps, this phenomenon coincided with one of the recurring eras of human / angel interaction. One last point here, i find it incredulous that E.T. had the technology to come to this earth just to play with stones. The angel scenario is more likely here-out of the two- because angels always have to work within what we call on this site stage parameters. 

Another strange point surrounding all these possible happenings is the idea that one particular group of people were untouched by these events. I should think it more likely that if these beings exist, then,  to my way of thinking, they infected all human institutions. There  has always been something very unsettling about how quick Christian people are to judge another human being to eternal torment. They almost seem to relish this idea. In my opinion, these people really have no idea what they are suggesting. Further, the genocides and atrocities of church history and religion in general speaks for itself, arguably alluding to the events of which i speak.

Okay, i hear ya! God doesn't exist! Angels don't exist! Well then, there is similar mass hallucination going on here spanning millennia. And really, i'm not all that prone to hallucination!

hey andrew

seems you are getting closer : "Okay, i hear ya! God doesn't exist! Angels don't exist! Well then, there is similar mass hallucination going on here spanning millennia. And really, i'm not all that prone to hallucination!"

we are all hallucinating permanently all of it , so if you think god exists : fine and angels ? why not its your film , you are the boss

just don´t assume that your dream is the only one.

back to that jewish tribes little book : the bible . it was written in the 7th century abd projected a glorious tribal history into the past to create a causal chain into the future for just one little tribe: the 15.000 or so strong inhabitants of jerusalme and surrounds . it was a political , quite genial, idea and move that badly backfired for the author , king hosea , but then the scribes saw ,over the next century or so that one could actually live in a .....book . who needs territory IF one lives in a book .

constantine about a 1000 years later needed some new glue for his falling apart roman empire and noticed the christian root version being a pretty could political blueprint for ruling and with a few additions declared his version of christianity as roman state religion in the 4th century a.d.

so these are just a few of the collectivelly hallucinated facts of that books history

and we should not forget that noah is also a muslim prophet, allah being appearantly not privy to the great jewish joke of their backdated hero history (he takes it still as truth today appearantly : ))

takes this very serious , in fact so serious that in most islamic ruled countries thios noah film is

banned since it is blasphemous and they tried (and still try ) to force europe to also ban it

so ....hallucinations can be pretty real especially if one doesnot suspect that one is actually.....

hallucinating.

mm

[andrew]

Hey mm, 

i do A-theism rather well! It's part of who i am. I don't do censure all that well and for the most part find it amusing; and in the case of Islam, find it regressive. The ethnocentric ties to these books run  extremely deep. It's hard to imagine being born and raised being told that your people are somehow in a privileged position in the universe. I don't think that part of religion can ever be overcome by natural means; again, it runs too deep. Western culture, to its credit allows for all these ideas to be laid upon the table. I'm happy to be dismissed here but please don't tell me that i am Kegan's stage one. That's just insulting ( not that you have said that). I appreciate your perspective here! CHEERS!

A note on ethnocentrism in the God Jesus Matrix: 

the father archetype and what we now know about the psychology of good parenting. We know now that no good parent loves a daughter more than a son. We know now that no good father would choose one son over another; especially to make an example of. We now know that a good father loves all his children and holds all of them in high esteem. Any other way  of seeing the father in the God Jesus Matrix is delusion. And of course, we now know that the father is married to a good mother ( god is not male)……………….

[Edward theurj Berge]

Another movie offers a more plausible explanation for some of these myths: Stargate. I still watch re-runs of this when I can, a classic favorite.

[andrew]

Hey theurj, 

i'm aware of the existential condition that all humanity finds themselves in and agree and concede that what i am proposing here is just another impulse of mans need to explain life within the parameters of religion. 

For the record, my path led me to the exploration of the E.T. hypothesis through the years 1995/2000. I read everything i could get my hands on in the libraries. In my opinion, as much i love sci-fi, and Stargate certainly has its moments; i can honestly say that i don't find it more plausible than a god hypothesis. At the same time, i don't argue against it. It could be that the universe is much more populated than what our 5 senses let us believe. But if there were anything to the god hypothesis it does behoove humanity to sincerely ask the question: which god? This thread offers an alternate theory to that long ongoing discussion. 

Another tangent:

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org

it's true that sulphuric acid from large volcanic eruptions will have a cooling effect on the planet but i suggest that for humans to take that task on themselves is a really bad idea! Who is unilaterally making these decisions to do this to the atmosphere?