Mahendra Trivedi (and Ken Wilber)

[Balder]

Has anyone heard of Mahendra Travedi before, or read this essay by Wilber? 

 

Here's a link to Trivedi's website, from which this is an excerpt:

 

Mahendra Kumar Trivedi was born with an exceptional ability to change living and non-living matter with Energy Transmissions or "blessings" (focused intentional consciousness, called The Trivedi Effect™). Through collaborations with researchers in six countries from numerous scientific fields, Trivedi has amassed a broad set of data substantiating this ability in a scientifically demonstrable and measurable manner. The results of these collaborations are beyond anything predicted by the science and technology of today:

• Agriculture - grow crops with no use of chemical fertilizers or pesticides while providing
  • Increased nutritional value (300% increase in bio-photons)
  • Increased yields (up to 500%)
  • Increased immunity (up to 300%)
    
    
• Genetics
  • Change the DNA in plants (up to 69%) and in microbes (up to 79%)
  • Change the genus and species in harmful bacteria
    
    
• Microbiology
  • Reduce viral loads for HIV, Hepatitis B and C and Cytomegalovirus (up to 99.81%)
  • Reduce antibiotic sensitivity of harmful bacteria (significantly)
  • Convert cancer cells into non-cancerous cells
    
    
• Material science
  • Alter mass and size of atom, energy within and between the atoms
  • Alter specific heat, boiling and melting points
  • Interchange mass and energy (more than 400%)
    
    

It is the goal of Trivedi Foundation to create additional rigorous scientific collaborations to further corroborate, reproduce and follow up on the many remarkable results of the Trivedi Effect™ on seeds, plants, soils, bacteria, fungi, viruses, metals, ceramics and polymers. Through continued collaboration with the international scientific community, we will broaden our base of understanding of the previously demonstrated effects and create groundbreaking new paradigms of the nature of human consciousness and its relationship to the material universe.

Trivedi Foundation also seeks to further the research previously done on Trivedi's distinct physiology and it's relationship to his unique abilities.

[Balder]

Hi, OM, can you say anything about the huge (culturally influenced?) shadow you've observed or heard about?

[Rev. O.M. Bastet]

Hi Bruce, well, I can, but it's a bit tricky to not be misinterpreted as overgeneralizing, or stereotyping. Cultural shadows are hardly universal, but generally, by definition, common.

Here's my first-hand observation posted in the Seattle Integral discussion:

And I didn't care for what the personality was, though the sense of humor seemed
good. I was put off by the sense of peevishness, easily-triggered annoyance, the
sense of brittleness, the "used-car-salesman" flavor, all of which are in MY
experience quite common in men from India. I phrase that carefully, to mean not
universal, just common, in my own experience.

Second-hand, from a friend I respect highly, that person reported first-hand observing him to be insulting, putting-down, rude, overbearing, controlling, angry, belittling, with his staff and administrators, outside of the public's hearing. Possibly even some physical violence, I don't recall exactly. Like hitting people in the head, as i recall.

Also one person reported his behavior during the personal session (those are less than 10 minutes long) as impersonal to the extreme; he sat eating nearly the whole time without even attempting to talk with her or even make eye contact.

All the above could be interpreted as either cultural shadow or personal shadow, depending on the extent of one's own database about Indian men and then about this guy in particular...... I speak from my own 1st-hand and 2nd-hand (from known sources) database about both.

The person who made the assessment of "it's cultural shadow more than personal" is a world-class spiritual psychologist and reader of people/souls. He was "getting" the information about Trivedi partly from intuition and partly from his decades of empirical observations. It's possible -- barely possible -- he is mistaken about the proportions.

He also said Trivedi has a large soul component of the "Innocent" archetype,and I certainly can confirm (as having the same myself) seeing several flashes of that child-like openness, naivete, and delightedness at simple things, and the ability to connect with others from that mode of Being.

Does this resonate with anything you've experienced, Bruce? Does it answer what your question was?

[Edward theurj Berge]

You have as yet told us what you think about all this Balder.

[Balder]

Yeah, I guess I haven't, have I? :-) I started a thread on this topic over on David's Integral Archipelago, and I made some comments there, but I hadn't gotten around to it here yet.


I do not rule out the possibility of the existence of something like energetic healing or other related phenomena, in principle. I base this view mostly on personal experiences, in Indonesia and elsewhere, but also on a few readings on the topic. I like how Nickeson expressed his views on this a few posts back.


With that said, I've had qualms about Trivedi from early on, especially after reviewing his website and reading about his services. What he's doing might be genuine (I don't know), but I pick up the aroma of "snake oil" on his site. It could be that he has certain abilities but is not above exploiting them and making a quick buck; or it could be the whole thing is a big scam, dressed up in "scientific" clothing for extra marketing bang. If he's genuine, I think he should agree to further peer reviewed testing, and maybe should also take up the Amazing Randy's challenge.


Regarding Ken's letter of endorsement, like others, I noticed how he seemed to be appropriating Trivedi's energy for his own, calling it "Integral energy" and using it to confirm his own model. I don't see what exactly would qualify this energy as "Integral energy." In general, I remain disappointed -- and slightly disturbed by -- Ken's consistent endorsement of folks who strike me as, in one way or another, "ethically challenged" or otherwise questionable in character.

[Seth]

Wow! yeah, I'm turned off. I don't know exactly what that says about me, but I am not feeling this guy at all. His worldview seems centered around magical/mythic, which is fine, but that lack of substance just doesn't do it for me. In other words I would never look to this guy for guidance or as a teacher. I guess none of that discounts the possibility for any truth being involved here, but the filters it's going through, if there is some, is too much for me.

I think, like Steven, at this point my interest in all this has more to do with the impact it's making around the integral community. Like honestly even if the claims do turn out to be true I couldn't see them changing the way I currently see things.

andrew said:

here's a link to trivedi speaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBpPO4oAoqM&feature=related

half way through he mentions edgar cayce and atlantean civilization.....................well, we are coming up to 2012! where's pinchbeck when you need him? oh yeah, he's doing a big 2012 symposium at simon fraser university and my guess is one of the themes will be the new energy shift........what the friggin' bleep!

[Rev. O.M. Bastet]

Yeah, I hope it's clear that I share your qualms, Bruce, and I too smell snake oil, but I also think it's more the exploitation of something genuine, than a complete scam. My first hand experiences and observations of others tell me something genuine is available here, however much it might be layered over with shadow shit.

SETH I almost totally resonate with all you said in your last post! I'm turned off, he doesn't do it for me, I would never look to him for guidance or truth (which doesn't mean he can't utter truth, of course he CAN and does. But then I've never been attracted to panning for gold flakes when nuggets are available elsewhere!! My way of saying what I think SETH said, that the filters are too much to bother wading through.)

Included in that resonance is that the impact on the Integral community is of far more importance and interest to me. This is a good litmus test, and a good opportunity for our own growth, for those who choose to take advantage of it. Quite clarifying. Therefore not a waste of time.

"The Darkness always, ultimately, serves the Light," is one perspective/model I find resonant for me.

[Rev. O.M. Bastet]

I'm using the "snake oil" metaphor precisely, BTW. Snake oil has a bad rep, obviously, but I read a "revisionist" view from someone who had done some research on it, and turned up that SOME ingredient in SOME snakes' oils actually has significant health benefits, so when it was actually sold door to door in the past, it was a "folk remedy" which was not 100% hype!

Thus I am using the image precisely for this case, as I see the matter.

[Seth]

Well I'm glad I could voice in close proximity to your own perspective, OM. I always find that helps give clarity. That's one of the reasons I usually enjoy reading posts from, Bruce, so I'm glad I could pass some of that along too.

There is one small grammatical correction I would like to make in my last post though. When I said: "I guess none of that discounts the possibility for any truth being involved here, but the filters it's going through, if there is some, is too much for me."I meant it to read more like: I guess none of that discounts the possibility for any truth being involved here, but if there is truth the filters it's going through are too much for me.

I put into question the truth not whether or not there are filters at play. There are always filters. You may have all read it that way anyway.

Cheers!

[Balder]

Hi, OM, yes, I understood that; and thank you for sharing your and your friend's perspectives. I was concerned that the "cultural" or "personal" shadow bit might be misogyny, or sexual scandals or abuse, as is so common among gurus.

The following note, which you've probably seen already, is apparently from an I-I insider, and refers both to Trivedi's personality and to (what appears to be) Ken's first-hand experience with him...

"A Little Bird

Some things to ponder related to this issue…

It is a well-known fact that Ken Wilber is experiencing system failure at many levels. Perhaps in the pursuit of addressing his own health challenges, Ken has had his own direct experience of Trivedi’s energy transmissions (i.e. “blessings”) — in the form of healing, or at the very least, pain relief — but knows that such a subjective personal account would draw more fire than pointing at yet-to-be-fully-qualified “scientific evidence.” Is there a subtext here that has not been fully illuminated?

The scientific research at this point is still in the pre-qualification stage and Trivedi knows this. He has been strategically pursuing studies in his home country and others for many years, knowing that the BIG game is here in the US. You might just be hearing about him, but he is not “new.” He has only just this last year or so come to the US with results of the studies he’s already had conducted in order to gain the attention of more mainstream researchers.

Apparently, something IS happening, but none of the leaders in the fringe-science community (e.g. Chopra, Roy, et al) really seem to know what it is. It would be nice to wait for mainstream, peer-reviewed scientific research to produced indisputable results to make definitive statements as to validity of Trivedi’s claims, but I think it a mistake to claim him to be a charlatan or the like quite yet. Some people who’ve experience Trivedi in the “green room” might refer to him in other ways — “jerk,” “rude,” “elitist,” “heartless” — but none of them that I’ve experienced have said he’s “wrong” in his claims. In fact many of them just deal with their personal opinions of him and continue to support him because they deeply believe that the energy that flows through him is one of the great miracle phenomenons of our time. And then there are others that are maintaining personal/professional distance from him because his demeanor leaves much to be desired, but are not incredibly vocal about it because the jury is still out in the New Thought/Science High Court.

My one-second point from all this: Trivedi has not been undisputedly debunked. This does not make him right …but it does not make him wrong either.

The eagerness on the part of the other commenters on this thread to write Trivedi/Wilber off should be advised to take every case on the merit of the facts as they exist …there are a lot of facts here that have not been disclosed. Don’t be swayed to take either men at face value, but also don’t so easily get your tickets to the witch-burning. They are just two sides of the same coin."

[Rev. O.M. Bastet]

No, I hadn't seen that Bruce, here and SI are the only places I've been looking, except for the link to Ken's original blog about Trivedi representing a new energy. Thanks for sharing it!!

It's of course wonderful that my view has come to be the same as whoever that was. Namely, there is something real and powerful and perhaps even uniquely so, going on, but man, the context sucks!!! I personally don't give a fig about scientific studies, that part of the picture doesn't interest me in the least, as I know (for myself) in principle all that is real and possible, it's part of my daily experience of life, and if this guy is faking it all, many others are NOT faking it all. And I don't think he IS faking it all.

And yes, obviously his staff is dedicated to something other than personal loyalty, to put up with what they put up with.

And I'm happy to see my own best hunch about Ken's attitude is shared by this person: namely that Ken's personal health challenges have been helped tremendously. Also I DO think he's capable of the litmus-test/teaching-mode motivation for his writing and endorsement, also.

I am totally puzzled why Ken might think, as that writer speculates, a personal account by him would draw more fire than some kind of abstract universal pronouncement of truth on a global or Kosmic scale. To me, the opposite is obviously true! No one is going to dispute a personal account, yes perhaps the interpretation of it, but nonetheless one cannot say "Oh you are fooling yourself nothing happened to you." That would be so disrespectful !!

But for Ken to put forth HIS interpretation as some universal truth, duh, how did he expect that would not draw fire??

So there are still many interesting questions remaining in this situation, IMO.

[Douglas R Wallack]

This probably comes closest to my stance at the moment. I feel certain that we don't yet know all there is about how the universe works or how we participate in these seemingly miraculous events.
I will continue to observe Mark Twain's advice, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble, it is what you know for sure that just ain't so."
Cheers,
Doug

Balder said:

Hi, OM, yes, I understood that; and thank you for sharing your and your friend's perspectives. I was concerned that the "cultural" or "personal" shadow bit might be misogyny, or sexual scandals or abuse, as is so common among gurus.

The following note, which you've probably seen already, is apparently from an I-I insider, and refers both to Trivedi's personality and to (what appears to be) Ken's first-hand experience with him...

"A Little Bird

Some things to ponder related to this issue…

It is a well-known fact that Ken Wilber is experiencing system failure at many levels. Perhaps in the pursuit of addressing his own health challenges, Ken has had his own direct experience of Trivedi’s energy transmissions (i.e. “blessings”) — in the form of healing, or at the very least, pain relief — but knows that such a subjective personal account would draw more fire than pointing at yet-to-be-fully-qualified “scientific evidence.” Is there a subtext here that has not been fully illuminated?

The scientific research at this point is still in the pre-qualification stage and Trivedi knows this. He has been strategically pursuing studies in his home country and others for many years, knowing that the BIG game is here in the US. You might just be hearing about him, but he is not “new.” He has only just this last year or so come to the US with results of the studies he’s already had conducted in order to gain the attention of more mainstream researchers.

Apparently, something IS happening, but none of the leaders in the fringe-science community (e.g. Chopra, Roy, et al) really seem to know what it is. It would be nice to wait for mainstream, peer-reviewed scientific research to produced indisputable results to make definitive statements as to validity of Trivedi’s claims, but I think it a mistake to claim him to be a charlatan or the like quite yet. Some people who’ve experience Trivedi in the “green room” might refer to him in other ways — “jerk,” “rude,” “elitist,” “heartless” — but none of them that I’ve experienced have said he’s “wrong” in his claims. In fact many of them just deal with their personal opinions of him and continue to support him because they deeply believe that the energy that flows through him is one of the great miracle phenomenons of our time. And then there are others that are maintaining personal/professional distance from him because his demeanor leaves much to be desired, but are not incredibly vocal about it because the jury is still out in the New Thought/Science High Court.

My one-second point from all this: Trivedi has not been undisputedly debunked. This does not make him right …but it does not make him wrong either.

The eagerness on the part of the other commenters on this thread to write Trivedi/Wilber off should be advised to take every case on the merit of the facts as they exist …there are a lot of facts here that have not been disclosed. Don’t be swayed to take either men at face value, but also don’t so easily get your tickets to the witch-burning. They are just two sides of the same coin."

[Seth]

Well that is the impression I got after reading a good portion of Wilber's blog post. That Ken's position on Trivedi is based more on a first had personal experience rather than the scientific facts. He does say something early on in his post to likes of if anyone gets the chance to be personally blessed by Mr. Trivedi that he highly recommends them doing so. That to me strongly suggests that he himself has been personally blessed and as a result has had some sort of influential experience. I could also see how that merit alone could garner much attack for him... especially when you're going to the length he's been going with it. Calling it the potential new an emerging integral energy that him and others have been theorizing. Like if he was more humble with a personal experience that's one thing, but if you're going to be calling for the equivalent of the second coming of Christ you probably want science on your side instead. That just goes to show too, because the science isn't there yet, and yes he's getting a lot of backlash as a result.

I love the Mark Twain quote, Doug!

Does anyone know who this I-I insider is?