Thomas Metzinger Podcast

[Dawid Dahl]

I don't know how many of you know about Thomas Metzinger, but he's a really awesome philosopher/scientist who tries to explain what consciousness is and how it is generated, and much else. He works on the so called "self-model theory of subjectivity". I've read his book The Ego Tunnel and much of his more scholarly work Being No One and it's very interesting stuff.

 

Anyway, if anyone's interested, here's a good podcast with him I just found: 

 

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/d/b/0/db043c09e46670ea/67-BSP-Metzinger.mp3?...

 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Metzinger

 

[e]

Hey Dawid,
I finally got around to reading the Ego tunnel. What an enjoyable read.

 

This was a cool find (click ‘Page’ to see the graphic).  Over the years when I found things in the pali canon that were a bit "far out", I would just shelve them and make a mental note. So here is one of those mental notes about creating a mind made body. The similies he uses are exactly like the graphic above.

Again, Udàyi, I have declared this method to my disciples, fallen to which method my disciples could create a mental form, complete with limbs large and small and the mental faculties. Udàyi, it's like a man who has taken a reed from the grass and it occurs to him, this is the reed and this is grass. Like a man who has pulled out a sword from the sheath, it occurs to him, this is the sword, and this is the sheath, the sword is one thing and the sheath is another thing, from the sheath the sword was pulled out. Udàyi, it's like a man who has taken a snake out of a box. It occurs to him, this is the snake and this is the box. The snake is one thing and the box is another thing In the same manner, I have declared this method to my disciples, fallen to which method my disciples could create another body a mental form complete with limbs large and small and the mental faculties Thus too my disciples abide aiming perfect knowledge for emancipation.

I have always looked at most of the supernatural claims in any religion as a form of OBE or lucid dreaming, etc. It’s great that Metzinger has a philosophical model and neuroscientific grounds for this as well.

I also liked his take on why we are all naïve realists... the transparency of the tunnel accomplishes this. Also the reason for the transparency... that it would cost too much brain energy to see the tunnel and that use of energy did not aid evolution (does it now?). This goes back to what we were talking about before in regards to dependent origination being about conditioning. Ignorance (non-knowing) conditions the whole process of ego birth. We are ignorant that the ego is an image in a simulated constructed or conditioned tunnel. This is how I view meditation, as a process of adding mental energy to introspection to see or make known the constructs and conditioning that lie below the surface of normative naïve realist consciousness.

[kelamuni]

You've done it again, e! The sword and sheath metaphor is found in the Vedic literature as well, and I have tabulated the references in my annotated index of images and metaphors from the Indian tradition. Thanks for finding the analog from the Pali canon! Do you have a text reference?

k

e said:

Hey Dawid,
I finally got around to reading the Ego tunnel. What an enjoyable read.

 

This was a cool find (click ‘Page’ to see the graphic).  Over the years when I found things in the pali canon that were a bit "far out", I would just shelve them and make a mental note. So here is one of those mental notes about creating a mind made body. The similies he uses are exactly like the graphic above.

Again, Udàyi, I have declared this method to my disciples, fallen to which method my disciples could create a mental form, complete with limbs large and small and the mental faculties. Udàyi, it's like a man who has taken a reed from the grass and it occurs to him, this is the reed and this is grass. Like a man who has pulled out a sword from the sheath, it occurs to him, this is the sword, and this is the sheath, the sword is one thing and the sheath is another thing, from the sheath the sword was pulled out. Udàyi, it's like a man who has taken a snake out of a box. It occurs to him, this is the snake and this is the box. The snake is one thing and the box is another thing In the same manner, I have declared this method to my disciples, fallen to which method my disciples could create another body a mental form complete with limbs large and small and the mental faculties Thus too my disciples abide aiming perfect knowledge for emancipation.

I have always looked at most of the supernatural claims in any religion as a form of OBE or lucid dreaming, etc. It’s great that Metzinger has a philosophical model and neuroscientific grounds for this as well.

I also liked his take on why we are all naïve realists... the transparency of the tunnel accomplishes this. Also the reason for the transparency... that it would cost too much brain energy to see the tunnel and that use of energy did not aid evolution (does it now?). This goes back to what we were talking about before in regards to dependent origination being about conditioning. Ignorance (non-knowing) conditions the whole process of ego birth. We are ignorant that the ego is an image in a simulated constructed or conditioned tunnel. This is how I view meditation, as a process of adding mental energy to introspection to see or make known the constructs and conditioning that lie below the surface of normative naïve realist consciousness.

[e]

Hey Kela,

 

Here is the text reference MN 77

Ven. Bodhi has an index of similes in the Majjhima and Samyutta. Walshe’s Digha does not. (I can’t get a preview of the Samyutta in google books. PM me if you want me to scan the Index of Similes from Volume 1 & 2 of the Samyutta. )

BTW since all these similes are in the Jain/Vedic/Pali literature, then it seems they are just the similes of the culture of the time and don’t “belong” to any one religion. You mentioned the elephant footprint being Shaivite. It makes sense right? Everyone would have seen an elephant’s footprint encompass all other footprints on a muddy street as it was the tank and bulldozer of the time.

[Dawid Dahl]

Hey, e!

 

Yeah, it's a great book, and I found most of his concepts worthy of taking on board. Ego-tunnel, self-model (the 1st, 2nd, 3rd-order versions), transparency, many others.

 

"I also liked his take on why we are all naïve realists... the transparency of the tunnel accomplishes this."

 

Yes! Do you remember this section? It had a great psychedelic effect on me, heh.

 

"We are ignorant that the ego is an image in a simulated constructed or conditioned tunnel."

 

And not just the ego, every kind of phenomenon across the board, it seems.

 

It's quite important to remember also that even the ego-tunnel doesn't deliver inherently existent objects to us in a ready-made fashion. Conceptuality brings meaning and boundary lines to these objects; the ego-tunnel, it seems to me, is simply an extraordinary matrix/sphere/fountain/tunnel of... what to call it... nondualistic flow-sensations? 

 

Pax vobis.

[e]

e: "I also liked his take on why we are all naïve realists... the transparency of the tunnel accomplishes this."

 

Dawid: Yes! Do you remember this section? It had a great psychedelic effect on me, heh.


I was meditating a few nights ago in a dark room and when I stopped and opened my eyes the objects in the room did not form 100% but were pixilated like looking close up at a Georges Seurat painting but in darker more grey tones. Or like the white noise of an analog black and white TV…the old ones you had to tune to get the channels and if you were off a little the picture would get fuzzy. But instead of looking at a fuzzy almost tuned TV screen, it was as if I was looking out of it. It was an admixture of the dark colors you may see when you close your eyes and the clean delineated forms with eyes open.


It's quite important to remember also that even the ego-tunnel doesn't deliver inherently existent objects to us in a ready-made fashion.

Yep.

 

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I also liked his ideas around the self image and changing it or adding tools to it. He was talking about holding a stick and tapping it and after awhile you could “feel” the end of the stick or incorporate the stick into the self image. I played roller hockey with a guy who was a semi-pro ice hockey player in his youth. I asked him about the difference between a pro and semi-pro player. He said, 'it was the ability to control the stick....that both had the same physical ability but the pro had greater stick control'. Metzinger would say the pro had changed his self image to a greater degree and had incorporated the stick into it and actually saw himself as a hockey player. Don’t we talk about great athletes in this manner? Oh he was born to be a such and such. When in reality the greats have just practiced more and changed their self image. I read in Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers that it takes 10,000 hours to master a discipline. Check out Michael Jordon in this video. He shoots a free throw with his eyes closed. He was trash talking with Mutumbo and says ‘Hey Mutumbo this one is for you’. Jordon not only spent long hours in the gym but also was into visualization techniques. He would visualize the game with his eyes closed before the game in the locker room.

One issue I had with the book is he leaned a little hard towards the materialist camp. He says consciousness is “in the brain” but I don’t recall him ever defining the brain.

[Balder]

I just came across this on Youtube:

 

[Dawid Dahl]

"I also liked his ideas around the self image and changing it or adding tools to it. He was talking about holding a stick and tapping it and after awhile you could “feel” the end of the stick or incorporate the stick into the self image. I played roller hockey with a guy who was a semi-pro ice hockey player in his youth. I asked him about the difference between a pro and semi-pro player. He said, 'it was the ability to control the stick....that both had the same physical ability but the pro had greater stick control'. Metzinger would say the pro had changed his self image to a greater degree and had incorporated the stick into it and actually saw himself as a hockey player. Don’t we talk about great athletes in this manner? Oh he was born to be a such and such. When in reality the greats have just practiced more and changed their self image. I read in Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers that it takes 10,000 hours to master a discipline. Check out Michael Jordon in this video. He shoots a free throw with his eyes closed. He was trash talking with Mutumbo and says ‘Hey Mutumbo this one is for you’. Jordon not only spent long hours in the gym but also was into visualization techniques. He would visualize the game with his eyes closed before the game in the locker room."

Yeah. And I can't even imagine what will be possible when we're able to manipulate the brain from the outside#6 as well (as opposed from the inside#1 with mental training) using various scientific instruments ... we'll be able to transform the self-model in whatever way we want, whenever we want. Or hell, even remove it with the flick of a switch. Spiritual practice will be easier in the future, yeah? :)

 

"I was meditating a few nights ago in a dark room and when I stopped and opened my eyes the objects in the room did not form 100% but were pixilated like looking close up at a Georges Seurat painting but in darker more grey tones. Or like the white noise of an analog black and white TV…the old ones you had to tune to get the channels and if you were off a little the picture would get fuzzy. But instead of looking at a fuzzy almost tuned TV screen, it was as if I was looking out of it. It was an admixture of the dark colors you may see when you close your eyes and the clean delineated forms with eyes open."

 

Awesome. The cool thing is that now you didn't think, like, "Hey there's something wrong." It's just the neutral ego-tunnel in a different configuration. Nothing wrong or right about it. (Though, of course, there are conventional contexts where rightness or wrongness apply, say, in the shoes of an eye doctor with a worried patient in front of her.)

[e]

Yeah. And I can't even imagine what will be possible when we're able to manipulate the brain from the outside#6 as well (as opposed from the inside#1 with mental training) using various scientific instruments ... we'll be able to transform the self-model in whatever way we want, whenever we want.

You may like this.


Or hell, even remove it with the flick of a switch. Spiritual practice will be easier in the future, yeah? :)

Spiritual practice is life…hard or easy…long or short…doesn’t matter much.

 

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"I was meditating a few nights ago… "

Awesome. The cool thing is that now you didn't think, like, "Hey there's something wrong." It's just the neutral ego-tunnel in a different configuration. Nothing wrong or right about it.

 

:-) It’s been a long time since I felt there was something wrong in meditation. His tunnel is a new take on an old theme i.e. Plato’s Cave.

"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. "

 

[M DuBois]

Thomas Metzinger was a great find, thank you!!

 

Reading The Ego Tunnel now.

Thomas MetzingerThomas MetzingerThomas Metzinger