What? There's only one discussion going on in the Pub?

That's definitely not enough. Barman! Another drink for me and the boys!

In the meantime I'll choose a song from the Jukebox:


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Btw Balder explored this issue in his 2010 ITC paper. We discussed it in this thread.

Which issue do you mean?

In the cartoon he is asking if his meditation partner is experiencing the same thing, so the issue of whether nirvana is the same experience for everyone.

Oh, got it!  LOL.  I'm too slow.

I also like the 'not thinking' inference, as if that is the ultimate in meditation experience. And that if it's non-conceptual it must therefore be the same experience.

Yes, that's an idea Ferrer critiques as well: the idea that non-conceptual spiritual experiences, because they are non-conceptual, are therefore "the same."

Recall this post and several following. (The link to the book for that post is a couple posts up.) It seems that even pre-linguistic image schemata, which I've argued are the medium through which we contact non-conceptual awareness, have cultural differences. Yes, we share some universal features of embodiment, but even those are tweaked by particular environments and the cultures that grow up adapting to them. There is valid criticism about L&J's over-emphasis on embodied individual universalism which I related to Piaget, versus the more contingent and social constructivism of schemas more in line with Vygotsky. Hence from a broader cognitive linguistic paradigm even non-conceptual experience is not only not the same for everyone but it some cases quite different.

Btw Kimmel, the author of the first linked reference in the last post, has an article in the latest Integral Review per this post and following, covering some of the same ground on how the universal and contextual mix and match. Also see this Kimmel article.

o.k. : )

 i was not so  much referring to you , just a bit surprised that i was the only one who seemed to notice his original importance and massive contribution to the real green revolution : ))

Balder said:

I was too busy to participate here this weekend, Max, but I did notice your tribute.  Thank you for the essay on Reed, I will check it out this evening.

I am aware now.

This sentence from this post reminded me of the following song: "Add in the conscious ego’s recognition and integration of them and we get an IA structure that holds all of the structures as they are without contradiction."

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What paths lie ahead for religion and spirituality in the 21st Century? How might the insights of modernity and post-modernity impact and inform humanity's ancient wisdom traditions? How are we to enact, together, new spiritual visions – independently, or within our respective traditions – that can respond adequately to the challenges of our times?

This group is for anyone interested in exploring these questions and tracing out the horizons of an integral post-metaphysical spirituality.

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