If the muslims of Spain, at the 12th century, had listened to the wise philosopher Ibn Rushd, they would have succeed at deconstructing their own mythology and reached a developmental level equivalent or even higer than the one seen in the western world today.
The negative role of the so called "reconquista of Spain" by the catholic kings and their fanaticism is also worth to be noted in that equation. By trowing the muslims out of Spain or to force them to conversion, they only succeed at re-einforcing the negative aspects of the unhealthy blue meme and its early form the redish level. The return of the repressed narrative is: our terrorists today dreaming of the restauration of the Caliphat of the Al-Adalus kingdom days.
How can the US government accept that a prime minister or a defence minister of the state of Israel are invited by american jewish organisations like AIPAC, well known for its lobbying activity in the Senat and the Congress?
I don´t get that. If these people were travelling for private issues, who cares? But in quality as officials it is a totally different question. hahahhahha
No other country of our planet does that. This sort of "privilegied status" attributed to a nation just increases the resentiment of people of the Middle East against the US.
If Abbas the palestinian president had to visit the US, a lot of people would treat him as a vulgar terrorist. Quite scandalous and pathetic this grotesque bias, ahhahha
Hardly a constructive attitude for peace building.
How far is this present Israeli governement willing to go with their provocating settlement politics in occupied territories? What are they looking for? The eradication of the last "unclean" arab palestinian from their "Holy Land"?
I have asked at several occasions during many years mainstream muslims on that issue, They repeatedly answered they are not against the jews at all, they considered them as their religious cousins, they recognized the state of Israel but they are just pissed off by the biased US attitude, its greedy interests in middle east, and that crazy settlement politics.
This is totally different picture than the one ridiculously vehiculed by some large US medias where all muslims are depicted only as a bunch of antisemites or potential terrorists. Grotesque.
what is a plausible and durable integral response to that mess?
Xibalba, (I didn't know if you were specifically addressing me with your question, so I was waiting on it), I too have thought about our position towards Israel. I know that we have supported Israel for awhile now. Obviously , as you implied, the US cannot afford to look biased towards the middle east. I didn't address the Israel/Palestinian issue in my paper, but I think it would go a long way towards improving relations in the Middle East. That being said, I don't see it being resolved anytime soon, because the Jewish and Muslim population can't engage in dialogue towards their differences. Even though the muslims you might have talked to weren't against the jews, there are still Muslims who are antisemetic and would like nothing more than the destruction of Israel. They consider Jews as "apes and pigs" and don't care about the value of their human life. Most of the politicians of the Middle East doesn't recognize the state of Israel...and that's the problem.
An integral response would look at things from the four quadrants, and would look at the political, social, cultural and economic situations...and that would obviously look at the Arab/Palestinian tensions. Israeli and Palestinian leaders have not held direct negotiations since Israel's war in Gaza last year. The US may help to act as the middle man and hopefully get Arab and Palestinian peace talks going again...but as I said before, it can't afford to look biased.
The US is in the process of "nation-building," whether it wants to be or not. Somehow, the US got labeled as "the Great Satan" (Bin Laden) and a lot of suicide myrters come from a situation where young boys who want to improve the situation of their lives are recruited, and they idealistically join a cause where they believe they can improve their lives. Unfortunately, "hate America" and the west slogans continually appear and are chanted from mosques, as I referred to in my essay.
The Middle East and Islam is dealing with a lot of problems right now. The Arab/Palestinian crisis is often used as an excuse by Muslims, but it's not the only issue. I think even if it was solved, there would still be a lot of resentment towards the US and modern world. I think it's going to require a lot of work, dedication, perserverance, and commitment by a lot of people...and there are no simple easy answers to it.
well I share your answer on that.
Now let me tell the passage from pre-modernity to modernity was even more bloody in Europe. Thousands of women and men died in the hand of the maniac religious inquisition, the dreadful history of european colonialism, slavery and its extension in the US.
We should not forget that we had two major crazy world wars on our soil, Unbelievable atrocities commited by unhuman robot like nazis. Millions of young men died futile deaths. The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in japan.
I wouldn´t go further in comparing the disasters of modernity on human populations but palestinian kids throwing stones on israeli soldiers sounds too hilarious a case here in regard to that demoniac background I described.
It is too easy to forget our long críminal history and play the moral censor on all matters today. In latin america, indians call us gringos, el diablo blanco, white devils" from where that fucking terms are coming from more from the deeds of our forefathers. let
I would also like to add prof. Norman Finkelstein´s view of the crazy illegal settlers, these messianic followers of jabotinsky "grand israel" so fanatic they are. He said you can´t discuss with these UFOs. he is apparently right.
Well I have nothing to do with the deeds of my ancestors. But there is a collective history remaining to deal with. It is amazing so many people do not even now anything of the massacre of the St Barthelemy´s night in Paris where thousands of french protestants were slaughtered by catholics. it is just an example. People forget so quickly.
rltruthseeker said: The Middle East and Islam is dealing with a lot of problems right now. The Arab/Palestinian crisis is often used as an excuse by Muslims, but it's not the only issue. I think even if it was solved, there would still be a lot of resentment towards the US and modern world. I think it's going to require a lot of work, dedication, perserverance, and commitment by a lot of people...and there are no simple easy answers to it.
Thank you for authentically expressing your opinion. I appreciate this. You basically describe that it's a diffcult problem, that the muslim world must work hard to solve their issues, and that there's hope for everyone in the future.
That's very nice, but unfortunately also totally biased. I agree that Israel-Palestine is the mother of all conflicts. It's the greatest single obstacle towards world peace. Whoever solves this problem can righteously call himself the savior of the planet. Applications welcome.
The peace process is gonna require a lot of work, from both sides. And that's the problem. We have here two opponents who claim possession of absolute truth. None of both wants to move an Inch. But as we all know, ultimately there is only one truth. There is no Truth except the Truth. You digg.
So let's face the facts. What consequences will occur if we follow your, RL's, line of flight? If we call for a gradual, slowly, careful peace process? Let's imagine: Israeli and Palestinian leaders meet and talk, drink coffee or Wissotzky tea, and discuss issues. What will happen?
My scenario is this: While politicians are talking, new settlements will be built. Silently and unnoticed, Israel will expand their territory. IOW one hand is doing shake hands and one hand is giving the middle finger. You don't have to read Gregory Bateson to know that this is an unhealthy communication pattern. I think (and hope) that the Obama Administration has begun to realize this during the last year.
So to sum it up: Your sugggestion, RL, while being well-meaning and good-hearted, is a biased one. Your proposal of hard work and a distant solution plays in the hands of the Israeli fundamentalists and condemns the Palestinians to more useless suffering. Honestly, I'm so fed up with promises of distant solutions and calls for virtue and patience. That's probably my traumatization with christian doctrine very early in life. Yeah well whatever I did my part.
Christophe: That's very nice, but unfortunately also totally biased. I agree that Israel-Palestine is the mother of all conflicts. It's the greatest single obstacle towards world peace. Whoever solves this problem can righteously call himself the savior of the planet. Applications welcome.
lol. That's too funny Christophe. Unfortunately, I'm no Savior. lol. I'm just doing my part. :) I think the US has to play "hardball" with a lot of those countries. I wasn't exactly referring to the Arab/Muslim tensions...but really more to the specific "Muslim terrorist" problem. The United States IS biased towards Israel, or it offers protection towards Israel, (and I've often wondered why that is.) I'm not really currently up to date on the news...but I found an interesting article here. And no your right...the Middle East doesn't seem to care about peace...it only seems to care it's own interests.
The "overprotective" attitude started after 1967 war, awar of the "Cold War" area. Nasser actually messed it up for the palestinians. The US are using Israel as how they called a "strategic carrier" for watching their interests in Middle East, which means oIl. Without oIl, the entire mddle east woulbe as interesting as the Burundi or Cap erde in Africa.
And Christopher is right, the settlements go on, The project to expulse palestinians is not new at all.
Imagine as Prof, Norman Finkelstein tells you:"how would you react if someone comes and tels you, you get out of here because you are living on place considered sacred to me" or how can you destroy a house with caterpillars as a punishment form?
if someone commits a crime in the US like for example the UNA bombman, a terrorist, are you destroying his house?
so that strategy has a hidden agenda, Yes, to take over your land. All that is of course denied in the US by powerful medias often own by pro-israelians lobbyists. These are some of Norman Finkelstein´s arguments to show the underlying nastiness of the state of Israel.
So a valuable peace project begins with an apology and a definite renunciation to settle on territories which do not belong to you. The myth of the security of that state starts looks more and more like a nazi "lebensraum" thesis. A mythology.
Thank you both xibalba and villa for your comments. Make note that I am not trying to defend the US for all of it's policies or it's intervention in the middle east. If you don't like the word "Muslim terrorist" then substitute radical Islam...whatever. The radical ideology that blew up the Twin towers, the Taj Mahal Motel, the subways of London...The ideology of hate that is has a direct component of Islamic fundamentalism...and the proof is in the centuries of Wahabbism, and Islamic wars. Israel and Palestine can't even get to the table to talks. The U.S. has become a target for Islamic resentment because of other forces, Nasserism and the colonialism that started the indirect resentment of Islamic countries towards the West because of Western exposure.... The CIA didn't "invent" Al Quida...but it did give them some training, which they utilize in jihadist camps that seek to make suicide attacks and blow up ideological interests that they think the US will care about...kind of like Al Qaeda blew up the Buddhist statues for no reason.
You want to blame the US for everything fine...try living in a Muslim country. You want to talk about rights, sure, why don't you talk about that in Iran. You want to blame the US media fine...then compare that to al Jazeera which is extremely biased. You want to talk about the rights of Guantanamo...(which I disagree with)... then compare that to getting beheaded.
When I said that the US is in the "process of nation building" ....I meant that it can influence other nations, but that this intervention will have to be indirect, and perhaps can influence other countries through the UN or through the progressive Muslim voice...because radical Islam doesn't care about others. That's why they are blowing up other Muslims, and it's causing a backlash even within their own countries, like in Afghanistan and Iraq. Radical Muslims suicide bombers are blowing up THEIR OWN PEOPLE in Muslim countries, not just US soldiers. Sunni and Shiites are extermely angry at each other.
Radical Muslims don't care about a "civil society" ...they care about a theocracy.
I'm not going to sit here all day and defend the US...
I just think it's better than one of the alternatives.
P.S. I never said I agreed with all of Wilber, or his endorsement of Tony Blair.
don´t go in in that totally unproductive reflex by comparing living in the US and in theocratic states in the middle-east. That´s it off the context and pretty evident. We fall into too cheap rethoric, It is totally uninteresting for me. I am mainly interested in the peace proces in middle-east.
Blaming the US?
this is not the goal at all. I actually don´t like the politicaksystem in teh US with only two parties, it doesn+ t reflect teh complexity of the values spaces. How can you associate a farmer of Iowa and it very distinct conventional value horizon with a large metropol academic involved in postmodern studies, etc..?
a real non-sense.
The notion of a Bush senior saying the US are protecting their vital interesr in the middle east means only access to oil in order to preserve the famous "american way of life". Now this concept is highly controversial an issue about a system supposed bringing harmony to human beings. The majority of existantial philosophers and psychologists in theUS and in the rest of the western world would say: "bullshit", and you could also ask yourself why you are participating to a Balder forum, which is mainly a retrofection of a deep trouble and a feeling of chronic dissatisfaction. The french sociologist GUy Debord once qualified our post industrial society :as: "the spectacle society". yes damn right: you can comfortably sit in your living room and watch on TV a video showing a US missile blowing an iraki factory, a clean shot as theyy call it. This is the apex of cynicism and vulgarity in the same way as a Oprah winfrey show or the invasion of docus or insipidous shows in everyday life of the totally passive householder, reduced to a consuming reflex. It is morelike living in a simulacra to me.
Such a meaningful society, isn´t it?
so much about the delusional Bush doctrine sounding like seeking the elusive scarlet pimpernel, It gives us a certain probability meaning to avoid to seriously consider how vulgar our lives look like.
here is a link to present the french professor in islamology and a good knower of the arab world, Gilles Kepel (he perfectly speaks arabic, turkish, kurd, parsi).
At least he is a needed intellectual counterweight to the too mediatic and ideologically biased Bernard Lewis, so praised by the neoconsertaive loobying movement of the Bush era. Just for the sake of balanced views as weirdos of FOX news used to say. ahhahahha
I didn't say you were blaming the US...because from your second post, it seems like your just blaming ALL governments.
and you could also ask yourself why you are participating to a Balder forum, which is mainly a retrofection of a deep trouble and a feeling of chronic dissatisfaction
Thanks for welcoming me. I think that "deep trouble and feeling of chronic dissatisfaction" seems to me like it's mainly fueled by you. And yes, this is "Balder's forum" so until he does kick me out, I have as much right to start threads, same as you.
It gives us a certain probability meaning to avoid to seriously consider how vulgar our lives look like.
Maybe you are just thinking about your own worldview and outlook on life.
P.S. It's a good thing your link isn't just an attempt to legitimize Al Qaeda...
why are you so touched by my views on this vulgar contemporary civilisation?
what´s cool with stupid cloned cell phones or computer geeks rapping all the day long on these silly artefacts all over the planet everyday of the week?
no matter you want it or not
the western dunghill is just a dunghill
and no need to compare it to the eastern or the southern dunghills
we will THX of course that great off-shore benefactor BP for its ecological caretaking of the Mexico gulf.
just ask for the moment what this elusive Al-Qaida phantom means for the regular shrimps fishermen of Louisiana?
so sad actually.
What paths lie ahead for religion and spirituality in the 21st Century? How might the insights of modernity and post-modernity impact and inform humanity's ancient wisdom traditions? How are we to enact, together, new spiritual visions – independently, or within our respective traditions – that can respond adequately to the challenges of our times?
This group is for anyone interested in exploring these questions and tracing out the horizons of an integral post-metaphysical spirituality.
Notice to Visitors
At the moment, this site is at full membership capacity and we are not admitting new members. We are still getting new membership applications, however, so I am considering upgrading to the next level, which will allow for more members to join. In the meantime, all discussions are open for viewing and we hope you will read and enjoy the content here.