Wilber's Message to Japan - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T07:31:23Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/wilbers-message-to-japan?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A9023&feed=yes&xn_auth=no Balder said:
In any event…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:98042011-03-23T09:35:19.382ZIrmeli Mattssonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/IrmeliMattsson
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<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/wilbers-message-to-japan?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A9009&page=2#5301756Comment9029"><div><em><strong> </strong></em> <br></br><p><strong>Balder said:</strong></p>
<p><strong>In any event, I'm noting that it seems to take a more controversial thread to lure other valued, but often silent, members out of the woodworks and to begin posting again. If I'm not careful, that could turn into a reinforcing feedback loop!…</strong></p>
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<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/wilbers-message-to-japan?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A9009&page=2#5301756Comment9029"><div><em><strong> </strong></em> <br/><p><strong>Balder said:</strong></p>
<p><strong>In any event, I'm noting that it seems to take a more controversial thread to lure other valued, but often silent, members out of the woodworks and to begin posting again. If I'm not careful, that could turn into a reinforcing feedback loop! :-) </strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Regarding your observation, or feeling, that a thread such as this is intended to "police" Wilber's thinking or to stop him from voicing his opinions, metaphysical or not, that is definitely not my intent. I have no desire to stop him from communicating, in whatever way he likes.</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>My way of expressing myself in my initial post was somewhat awkward. All what you say above is fine to me.</em></p>
<p>It is curious how differently people can hear what Wilber says. I sense in their comments here a hidden expectation that what ever Wilber says is something that must deeply positively resonate in them.If that is not the case, it creates a disappointment, that gets voiced sometimes even unnecessarily harshly.</p>
<p>When reading Wilber's message, I did not perceive any big problems in it. It is not one of his best texts, but it does not irritate me in anyway.</p>
<p>There are many Integral Life practice groups all over the world.My son is leading one in Helsinki. I'm participating in a tentavive one here in my home city Turku.</p>
<p>I hear him addressing these kinds of groups in Japan. For people in such a group his message is in place.</p>
<p>In catastrophes of this magnitude there is always real danger of getting secondary traumatized by getting emotionally too identified with the horrors, that you have not been actually been personally got hurt by.His advice is a good one in that kind of situation. The advice is not however easy to put in practice. If it fails, withdrawal from too much emotional involvement may be in place. Our defenses have many useful functions, and in this situation they may be called for. </p>
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</blockquote> yes I remember this paper, ha…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:97042011-03-23T06:08:53.570Zxibalbahttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/xibalba
<p>yes I remember this paper, hahha,</p>
<p>But I also recall the madness of the red/blue meme gang at the peace and war forum in those days.</p>
<p>the other one was on the war in Irak, where he used the metaphor of the Bagahvad Gita such: " doing the job but not reaping thefruits of it".</p>
<p>Such a crap, and a couple of millions of people leaving the country.</p>
<p>Maybe he still thinks that the revolt in the arab countries is due to the domino effect theory of Dubya le fou unattached to…</p>
<p>yes I remember this paper, hahha,</p>
<p>But I also recall the madness of the red/blue meme gang at the peace and war forum in those days.</p>
<p>the other one was on the war in Irak, where he used the metaphor of the Bagahvad Gita such: " doing the job but not reaping thefruits of it".</p>
<p>Such a crap, and a couple of millions of people leaving the country.</p>
<p>Maybe he still thinks that the revolt in the arab countries is due to the domino effect theory of Dubya le fou unattached to the gain of his "forfanterie", the famous neocon version of a memetic wave.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>kelamuni said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>i posted some of the conversation here on my fb wall, and one of my friends there, and a former poster here, added these comments (i'll not mention his name to respect his privacy):</p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div id="id_4d8987c0270bb3e89296213" class="text_exposed_root text_exposed">|I am reminded of when a couple of months after 9/11 I happened upon a website devoted to writings about the event by contemporary Buddhists, including a piece by Thich Nhat Hanh. I then wondered if Wilber had posted anything online about 9/<span class="text_exposed_hide">...</span><span class="text_exposed_show">11, and so I did a search and found his piece titled, "The Deconstruction of The World Trade Center: A Date That Will Live in a Sliding Chain of Signifiers." That title strikes me as glib, and everything Wilber had to say about the event struck me as coming from a very different emotional and political sensibility than that of the majority of writings by various Buddhists I'd seen. To be specific, I found Wilber's writing about the event to be emotionally dissociated, as if instead of feeling the impact of the event he ascended to some abstract "domain" that concrete tragedy cannot touch, and I found his thinking on the matter to be rooted in a colonialist and utterly Western-centric mentality. What Hahn writes about Japan strikes me as human, real, grounded, and spiritual in those senses. Wilber's "message," on the other hand, is more of what I've come to expect from Wilber...basically blather."</span></div>
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</blockquote> I know who that is...tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:98032011-03-23T05:52:41.336ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
I know who that is...
I know who that is... i posted some of the conversa…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:98022011-03-23T05:48:11.130Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p>i posted some of the conversation here on my fb wall, and one of my friends there, and a former poster here, added these comments (i'll not mention his name to respect his privacy):</p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div class="text_exposed_root text_exposed" id="id_4d8987c0270bb3e89296213">|I am reminded of when a couple of months after 9/11 I happened upon a website devoted to writings about the event by contemporary Buddhists, including a piece by Thich Nhat Hanh. I then wondered if Wilber had…</div>
<p>i posted some of the conversation here on my fb wall, and one of my friends there, and a former poster here, added these comments (i'll not mention his name to respect his privacy):</p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div class="text_exposed_root text_exposed" id="id_4d8987c0270bb3e89296213">|I am reminded of when a couple of months after 9/11 I happened upon a website devoted to writings about the event by contemporary Buddhists, including a piece by Thich Nhat Hanh. I then wondered if Wilber had posted anything online about 9/<span class="text_exposed_hide">...</span><span class="text_exposed_show">11, and so I did a search and found his piece titled, "The Deconstruction of The World Trade Center: A Date That Will Live in a Sliding Chain of Signifiers." That title strikes me as glib, and everything Wilber had to say about the event struck me as coming from a very different emotional and political sensibility than that of the majority of writings by various Buddhists I'd seen. To be specific, I found Wilber's writing about the event to be emotionally dissociated, as if instead of feeling the impact of the event he ascended to some abstract "domain" that concrete tragedy cannot touch, and I found his thinking on the matter to be rooted in a colonialist and utterly Western-centric mentality. What Hahn writes about Japan strikes me as human, real, grounded, and spiritual in those senses. Wilber's "message," on the other hand, is more of what I've come to expect from Wilber...basically blather."</span></div> Hi kela
How much post-metaphy…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:98012011-03-23T04:09:30.723Zxibalbahttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/xibalba
<p>Hi kela</p>
<p>How much post-metaphysical are you nowadays in your scholar works?</p>
<p>How do you look at Halbfass´orientalism and the post-colonial view in general today?</p>
<p><br></br><br></br><cite>xibalba said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>Well I would not oppose that, hahahahah</p>
<p>I am not nor have been a fan of "gurus". Thou I was interested in JIddu Krishnamurti. Younger, I appreciated his language style, It was refreshing, clear, brillantly analytical, comprehensive and better…</p>
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<p>Hi kela</p>
<p>How much post-metaphysical are you nowadays in your scholar works?</p>
<p>How do you look at Halbfass´orientalism and the post-colonial view in general today?</p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>xibalba said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>Well I would not oppose that, hahahahah</p>
<p>I am not nor have been a fan of "gurus". Thou I was interested in JIddu Krishnamurti. Younger, I appreciated his language style, It was refreshing, clear, brillantly analytical, comprehensive and better suited for a westerner.The language of the scriptures (buddhists, hindus, etc..) was a confusing nightmare to me. He literally ignited to look beyond all the ready made descriptions and interpretations of the world of my time: Freud, Marx, Sartre, Debord, the main "cultural background" of the late sixties.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>kelamuni said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p><br/>hi x,</p>
<p>i guess i have some issues with painting cultures with broad strokes. for example, though i am a european and loosely speaking was brought up with x-tian background, i am also a wasp, and as wasps we don't cry at funerals, and certainly not at weddings, we don't bring up sex at family gatherings, we don't whimper when the germans drop bombs on us, and we don't give each those mendacious little hugs that continental and new agey types give each other. hahaha. at the same time i'm willing to admit that buddhistic notions like the "floating (fleeting) world" are deeply imbedded in the japanese psyche, as can be seen in her art. but i also wonder about whether or not the japanese actually mourn. i sense that the japanese still mourn; they are just not as interested in its public expression as other cultures.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>what this really comes down to, though, is my loathing for teachers who go public with spiritual teachings. i have deep distrust and dislike for teachers of spiritual traditions who go public -- write generalized books with prescriptive content, give a lectures series, go on television, etc. i don't see much of difference between them and those involved in the new age racket. this goes even for writers like krishnamurti and ramana. as for ken, as balder says, i wish he would have stayed a pundit. my dislike and distrust of him began when he started to take on roles beyond that of scholar. when he did, it really began to affect his writing style and the content of his books. kinda like when da started to write that dawn horse shit. hahaha. but that's just my opinion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>cheers.</p>
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</blockquote> Well I would not oppose that,…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:96082011-03-23T04:00:51.937Zxibalbahttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/xibalba
<p>Well I would not oppose that, hahahahah</p>
<p>I am not nor have been a fan of "gurus". Thou I was interested in JIddu Krishnamurti. Younger, I appreciated his language style, It was refreshing, clear, brillantly analytical, comprehensive and better suited for a westerner.The language of the scriptures (buddhists, hindus, etc..) was a confusing nightmare to me. He literally ignited to look beyond all the ready made descriptions and interpretations of the world of my time: Freud, Marx,…</p>
<p>Well I would not oppose that, hahahahah</p>
<p>I am not nor have been a fan of "gurus". Thou I was interested in JIddu Krishnamurti. Younger, I appreciated his language style, It was refreshing, clear, brillantly analytical, comprehensive and better suited for a westerner.The language of the scriptures (buddhists, hindus, etc..) was a confusing nightmare to me. He literally ignited to look beyond all the ready made descriptions and interpretations of the world of my time: Freud, Marx, Sartre, Debord, the main "cultural background" of the late sixties.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>kelamuni said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p><br/>hi x,</p>
<p>i guess i have some issues with painting cultures with broad strokes. for example, though i am a european and loosely speaking was brought up with x-tian background, i am also a wasp, and as wasps we don't cry at funerals, and certainly not at weddings, we don't bring up sex at family gatherings, we don't whimper when the germans drop bombs on us, and we don't give each those mendacious little hugs that continental and new agey types give each other. hahaha. at the same time i'm willing to admit that buddhistic notions like the "floating (fleeting) world" are deeply imbedded in the japanese psyche, as can be seen in her art. but i also wonder about whether or not the japanese actually mourn. i sense that the japanese still mourn; they are just not as interested in its public expression as other cultures.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>what this really comes down to, though, is my loathing for teachers who go public with spiritual teachings. i have deep distrust and dislike for teachers of spiritual traditions who go public -- write generalized books with prescriptive content, give a lectures series, go on television, etc. i don't see much of difference between them and those involved in the new age racket. this goes even for writers like krishnamurti and ramana. as for ken, as balder says, i wish he would have stayed a pundit. my dislike and distrust of him began when he started to take on roles beyond that of scholar. when he did, it really began to affect his writing style and the content of his books. kinda like when da started to write that dawn horse shit. hahaha. but that's just my opinion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>cheers.</p>
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</blockquote> I'm thinking Ken's statement…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:96062011-03-23T01:21:50.320ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p><em><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">I'm thinking Ken's statement to the Japanese is his attempt at a "helpful translation" of their condition, and is not necessarily indicative of his own fundamental view.</span></strong></em></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-family: Arial;">That could be. But I've heard him say things like this in a number of other texts as well that seem to be presenting basic Integral theory. While folks might criticize Thich Nhat Hanh for being "Green," his…</span></p>
<p><em><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">I'm thinking Ken's statement to the Japanese is his attempt at a "helpful translation" of their condition, and is not necessarily indicative of his own fundamental view.</span></strong></em></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-family: Arial;">That could be. But I've heard him say things like this in a number of other texts as well that seem to be presenting basic Integral theory. While folks might criticize Thich Nhat Hanh for being "Green," his letter does seem a bit more grounded and humane.<br/></span></p> Yes, definitely; this is not…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:95102011-03-23T00:59:30.890ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Yes, definitely; this is not really a "Buddhistic" letter. It's much closer to Vedanta.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He does say, "my friends in Japan," so probably he isn't addressing the Japanese people per se, anyway, but just a group of Japanese students who are already well versed in Integral spiritual metaphysics.</p>
<p>Yes, definitely; this is not really a "Buddhistic" letter. It's much closer to Vedanta.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He does say, "my friends in Japan," so probably he isn't addressing the Japanese people per se, anyway, but just a group of Japanese students who are already well versed in Integral spiritual metaphysics.</p> to render this issue truly mo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:96052011-03-23T00:40:47.514Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
to render this issue truly moot (which means, btw, not "irrelevant" but "a matter of academic debate") let's assume that ken is indeed addressing a buddhistic japanese culture in which notions of impermanence are ingrained, as can be found in such concepts as wabi-sabi and ukiyo-e. in wonder then about ken's choice of words in his letter. in his primary didactic passsage, he refers to concepts such as the Witness (Sanskrit: sakshin) and Spirit (Sanskrit: cit; chaitanya). but these are not…
to render this issue truly moot (which means, btw, not "irrelevant" but "a matter of academic debate") let's assume that ken is indeed addressing a buddhistic japanese culture in which notions of impermanence are ingrained, as can be found in such concepts as wabi-sabi and ukiyo-e. in wonder then about ken's choice of words in his letter. in his primary didactic passsage, he refers to concepts such as the Witness (Sanskrit: sakshin) and Spirit (Sanskrit: cit; chaitanya). but these are not buddhistic terms. they are terms from vedanta. and moreover they imply concepts of permanence (nitya) not impermanence (anitya). so, wtf? hahaha. hi x,
i guess i have some iss…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-03-23:5301756:Comment:96042011-03-23T00:06:26.462Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p><br></br>hi x,</p>
<p>i guess i have some issues with painting cultures with broad strokes. for example, though i am a european and loosely speaking was brought up with x-tian background, i am also a wasp, and as wasps we don't cry at funerals, and certainly not at weddings, we don't bring up sex at family gatherings, we don't whimper when the germans drop bombs on us, and we don't give each those mendacious little hugs that continental and new agey types give each other. hahaha. at the same…</p>
<p><br/>hi x,</p>
<p>i guess i have some issues with painting cultures with broad strokes. for example, though i am a european and loosely speaking was brought up with x-tian background, i am also a wasp, and as wasps we don't cry at funerals, and certainly not at weddings, we don't bring up sex at family gatherings, we don't whimper when the germans drop bombs on us, and we don't give each those mendacious little hugs that continental and new agey types give each other. hahaha. at the same time i'm willing to admit that buddhistic notions like the "floating (fleeting) world" are deeply imbedded in the japanese psyche, as can be seen in her art. but i also wonder about whether or not the japanese actually mourn. i sense that the japanese still mourn; they are just not as interested in its public expression as other cultures.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>what this really comes down to, though, is my loathing for teachers who go public with spiritual teachings. i have deep distrust and dislike for teachers of spiritual traditions who go public -- write generalized books with prescriptive content, give a lectures series, go on television, etc. i don't see much of difference between them and those involved in the new age racket. this goes even for writers like krishnamurti and ramana. as for ken, as balder says, i wish he would have stayed a pundit. my dislike and distrust of him began when he started to take on roles beyond that of scholar. when he did, it really began to affect his writing style and the content of his books. kinda like when da started to write that dawn horse shit. hahaha. but that's just my opinion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>cheers.</p>