What "is" Post-Metaphysics? - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T12:56:58Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/what-is-post-metaphysics?feed=yes&xn_auth=noAs I sit here tempted to add…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-21:5301756:Comment:425652012-07-21T18:09:37.787ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>As I sit here tempted to add my jaunty <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/correlationism-an-open-letter-of-apology" target="_self">"Introduction to Post-Correlationalism"</a> to the integral life site I am (in light of your cross-fertilizing above) reciprocally pondering adding here my <a href="http://integrallife.com/node/200600" target="_blank">"The Skeptical Faith"</a> post which I just composed "over there" for (inspired by) David Marshall. </p>
<p>Probably I…</p>
<p>As I sit here tempted to add my jaunty <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/correlationism-an-open-letter-of-apology" target="_self">"Introduction to Post-Correlationalism"</a> to the integral life site I am (in light of your cross-fertilizing above) reciprocally pondering adding here my <a href="http://integrallife.com/node/200600" target="_blank">"The Skeptical Faith"</a> post which I just composed "over there" for (inspired by) David Marshall. </p>
<p>Probably I shall do neither!<br/> <cite><br/></cite></p> I wanted to connect a related…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-21:5301756:Comment:427282012-07-21T00:00:33.243ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>I wanted to connect <a href="http://integrallife.com/node/200534?page=1" target="_blank">a related conversation</a> on Integral Life over to this thread.</p>
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<p><strong>LP:</strong> There are obviously temperamental differences between the ways and -- who knows -- the possibility of vast structural divergence resulting from small differences in their "alogorithms". But there is also tremendous convergence and one can readily imagine many ways in which Path of Skepticism weaves into…</p>
<p>I wanted to connect <a href="http://integrallife.com/node/200534?page=1" target="_blank">a related conversation</a> on Integral Life over to this thread.</p>
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<p><strong>LP:</strong> There are obviously temperamental differences between the ways and -- who knows -- the possibility of vast structural divergence resulting from small differences in their "alogorithms". But there is also tremendous convergence and one can readily imagine many ways in which Path of Skepticism weaves into itself the Ways of Surrender & Desire. The skeptic is not dispassionate and motiveless. He must encounter the desire which seeks to not be fooled, which seeks -- wouldn't you know it? -- to arrive in the position of maximal truth. And what is this position for him? It can only be, in the end, totally surrender and total embrace at the level of whatever intelligence he is using.</p>
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<p>...[T]o be precise, I am suggesting that skepticism suggests a particular type of additional contextualized loosely sharp holding of perspectives' (or what I call the "also/perhaps" in distinction from the either/or & the both/and) which we pragmatically end up with as the definition of post-metaphysical."</p>
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<p><strong>David Marshall (DM):</strong> Is this a PC, post-metaphysical way to refer to the eight hori-zones and integral methodological pluralism? Are you slyly depending on AQAL here?</p>
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<p><strong>LP:</strong> What I am doing here is generalizing the post-metaphysical principle in a pragmatic way which justifies AQAL's attempt but equally justifies the attempts of all of philosophers and integralites who have sought to engage this way-of-being-with-knowledge. Post-metaphysical is pretty tidy when it mean post-mythical, reasonable, experience-based, enactive reality. But it can quickly rise to a level in which all implied treatments of reality whatsoever are contextualized as metaphysics. Then what? Isn't AQAL/8 another metaphysics? Yes and no. It is this "yes and no" which we have to take seriously. It approaches the way-of-being-with-knowledge that is shared and hinted among the various persons and systems which would like to be post-metaphysical. So that "holding" becomes, for me, the primary practical referent of this term.</p>
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<p><strong>DM: </strong> Your leftoverness is distinguished from much of the post-metaphysical it-space, right? Don't they often, both the modern and postmodern types, pride themselves on going beyond faith? I have heard them say we can't posit states or God or anything because this entails faith, so an aspect of faith appears to be unavoidable, yes?</p>
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<p><strong>LP: </strong> Yes, of course, but (a) how much of this pride is simple vanity and self-justification (b) how many distinct concepts are hidden under the word "faith". If we use faith as I use it, as almost the opposite of belief, as a functional heart-felt pragmatic relational confidence, as the thing which makes us trust that the ground will not dissolve beneath our feet today -- then all these people are in various stages of faithfulness. They are not believers. They even take healthy pride in not being subordinated to primitive and even self-thwarting culturopathic moral imperatives to belief what someone else says without any proof. But this willingness to doubt our whims, our traditions, our authorities... is it not a faith in oneself, in one's capacity, one's experience, one's... reality?</p>
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<p><strong>Balder: </strong> Yes, I would say a trust also in being or existence or "what(ever) is." Skepticism, when it is included and cultivated as a spiritual virtue (or a "practice of the self" in Levin's sense), is at once a faithful vulnerability which embraces the acategorical imperative: a willingness to put our or others' metaphysical truths into question, which means (at times at least) to put them to the test. This is not an anti-metaphysical perspective. Metaphysical speculation is generative and important and even an essential part of our philosophical, scientific, and spiritual efforts to interface meaningfully, effectively, and creatively with the world. Putting metaphysical truth claims into question under the acategorical imperative doesn't mean rejecting all perceived metaphysical claims out of hand (in doing so, we would very likely be leaving our own metaphysical operating framework absolutized and unquestioned), but being willing both to rationally question and inquire into, and to open-endedly (i.e., faithfully-critically) act on, metaphysical claims: to personally take our chances with them, and to publicly hold them up for ongoing scrutiny (whenever that is called for).</p> Yes, I think getting a little…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-04:5301756:Comment:422882012-07-04T20:33:16.320ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Yes, I think getting a little manifesto-ish regarding key themes here would be interesting and useful for the forum as a whole. When I first started this forum years ago (on the Gaia network, not Ning), I did so with two manifesto-ish threads: "Integral Postmetaphysics, Simply Put" and "In Defense of Integral Postmetaphysics." My view of "integral postmetaphysics" has evolved and changed some since then, so neither of these posts would be worth resurrecting here (at least, not in their…</p>
<p>Yes, I think getting a little manifesto-ish regarding key themes here would be interesting and useful for the forum as a whole. When I first started this forum years ago (on the Gaia network, not Ning), I did so with two manifesto-ish threads: "Integral Postmetaphysics, Simply Put" and "In Defense of Integral Postmetaphysics." My view of "integral postmetaphysics" has evolved and changed some since then, so neither of these posts would be worth resurrecting here (at least, not in their entirety), but over the course of this forum's history, we've also had more than a handful of threads exploring the meaning of metaphysics and postmetaphysics (Theurj provided links to a couple of them). Nevertheless, it's always good to return to the question -- especially since it's likely that I'm not the only one here whose views on this topic have changed in various ways since the project of this forum first began. We've also explored various views of "integral" and "religion" in a number of threads (and, <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-eight-zones-of-religion" target="_self">here</a>, I did some <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-eight-zones-of-religion" target="_self">initial collating work</a> to flesh out how an IMP/8-zone approach to religion might look), but again, I think it would be nice to have (as you are proposing) a few concentrated places where members' collective and emerging views on several of the guiding themes here could be aired and reviewed from time to time.</p>
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<p>In <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/forum-survey-integral-postmetaphysical-spirituality-in-2012" target="_self">this thread</a>, which I posted at the beginning of the year, I asked members what they'd like to see at IPS going forward in 2012 -- what changes, additions, etc. If you look at the thread, you'll see your suggestions and promptings are in line with several suggestions made by (mostly lurking/reading) members in response to my inquiry back in January. Good ideas -- I like 'em. Let's manifest a few manifestos!</p> With a "What is Religion?" an…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-04:5301756:Comment:423782012-07-04T18:35:09.039ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>With a "What is Religion?" and a "What is Post-Metaphysics?" it remains only for me to create a "What is Integral?" and I shall have generated the raw material necessary to have a full opinion on the theme of this forum. </p>
<p>What an interesting place it would be if everyone had to get a little manifesto-ish (or personal summary-ish) on these three topics. We would be, perhaps, better armed for the crusade implied by the topic which joins us together.</p>
<p>With a "What is Religion?" and a "What is Post-Metaphysics?" it remains only for me to create a "What is Integral?" and I shall have generated the raw material necessary to have a full opinion on the theme of this forum. </p>
<p>What an interesting place it would be if everyone had to get a little manifesto-ish (or personal summary-ish) on these three topics. We would be, perhaps, better armed for the crusade implied by the topic which joins us together.</p> Yes, we will have to infer wh…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-03:5301756:Comment:423712012-07-03T23:56:59.277ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Yes, we will have to infer what he said by the responses before and after the (w)holes he left, as if now in his absence he provides that virtual uncertainty principle that is not presently actual.</p>
<p>Yes, we will have to infer what he said by the responses before and after the (w)holes he left, as if now in his absence he provides that virtual uncertainty principle that is not presently actual.</p> (Note that the previous threa…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-03:5301756:Comment:423702012-07-03T23:31:21.050ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>(Note that the previous thread of the same name has a number of holes in it, now that Thomas' posts have been deleted, so the flow will be a bit choppy and discontinuous. Part of Tom's quantum legacy for this forum, LOL!)</p>
<p>(Note that the previous thread of the same name has a number of holes in it, now that Thomas' posts have been deleted, so the flow will be a bit choppy and discontinuous. Part of Tom's quantum legacy for this forum, LOL!)</p> Also see this previous thread…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-03:5301756:Comment:423672012-07-03T23:24:15.297ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Also <a href="what-is-post-metaphysical">see this previous thread</a> of the same name. And this <a href="essence-and-identity">related thread</a>.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Also <a href="what-is-post-metaphysical">see this previous thread</a> of the same name. And this <a href="essence-and-identity">related thread</a>.</p> Very nice po-meta riffing, La…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-07-03:5301756:Comment:420662012-07-03T22:11:52.403ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Very nice <em>po-meta</em> riffing, Layman Pascal. I offered a brief outline of my understanding of the term <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/on-open-letter-to-ken-wilber-and-integral-teachers?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A42365" target="_self">in a post to Oleg</a> earlier today. From what you've written above, it appears we're thinking along similar lines. I like your "cheerful skepticism" and "supra-metaphysics," which I relate to two felicitous terms I've…</p>
<p>Very nice <em>po-meta</em> riffing, Layman Pascal. I offered a brief outline of my understanding of the term <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/on-open-letter-to-ken-wilber-and-integral-teachers?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A42365" target="_self">in a post to Oleg</a> earlier today. From what you've written above, it appears we're thinking along similar lines. I like your "cheerful skepticism" and "supra-metaphysics," which I relate to two felicitous terms I've borrowed from Joel Morrison: the <em>acategorical imperative</em> and <em>meta-metaphysics</em>.</p>