Waking, Dreaming, Being by Evan Thompson - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T15:52:16Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A61006&feed=yes&xn_auth=no"Consciousness isn't an abstr…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2016-03-24:5301756:Comment:641792016-03-24T23:10:44.525ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p><span><span><span class="UFICommentBody"><span>"Consciousness isn't an abstract informational property, such as Giulio Tononi's 'integrated information'; it's a concrete, bioelectrical phenomenon" (343).</span></span></span></span></p>
<p><span><span><span class="UFICommentBody"><span>"Consciousness isn't an abstract informational property, such as Giulio Tononi's 'integrated information'; it's a concrete, bioelectrical phenomenon" (343).</span></span></span></span></p> I think that's close to Thomp…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-12-16:5301756:Comment:632292015-12-16T22:09:43.080ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I think that's close to Thompson when he said: "It’s not a ready made, independent thing or substance; it’s a constructed process or a process undergoing constant construction." It is a constructed interdependent thing that maintains its own autonomy nonetheless. I shift to Bryant on the interdependent autonomy of things for a clearer definition.</p>
<p>I think that's close to Thompson when he said: "It’s not a ready made, independent thing or substance; it’s a constructed process or a process undergoing constant construction." It is a constructed interdependent thing that maintains its own autonomy nonetheless. I shift to Bryant on the interdependent autonomy of things for a clearer definition.</p> Good stuff. In Religion and R…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-12-15:5301756:Comment:631592015-12-15T21:44:24.249ZDavidM58http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DavidM58
<p>Good stuff. In <em>Religion and Radical Empiricism</em>, Nancy Frankenberry takes us from the thinking of Dewey and James, through to Wieman, Meland, and Loomer, and then finally back to Whitehead and Abhidharma Buddhism. The question then becomes how to properly interpret the Abhidharma view. I like the summary Evans gives above: "<span>which holds that what we call a ‘self’ or ‘person’ is ultimately only a collection of impersonal and momentary mental and physical events…</span></p>
<p>Good stuff. In <em>Religion and Radical Empiricism</em>, Nancy Frankenberry takes us from the thinking of Dewey and James, through to Wieman, Meland, and Loomer, and then finally back to Whitehead and Abhidharma Buddhism. The question then becomes how to properly interpret the Abhidharma view. I like the summary Evans gives above: "<span>which holds that what we call a ‘self’ or ‘person’ is ultimately only a collection of impersonal and momentary mental and physical events (dharmas)."</span></p>
<p><span>I think this is a powerful conception to hold - it fits very well with my ideas around PatternDynamics. But it's not the whole story. </span></p>
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<p>Just today I read this quote from Bernard Loomer, which is relevant:</p>
<p><span>"In the relational viewpoint, the individual begins life as an effect produced by the many others in the world of his immediate past. But he is not simply a function of these relations. He is emergent from his relations; and in the process of his emergence he also creates himself. His life as a living individual consists of synthesizing into some degree of subjective unity the various relational causes or influences which have initiated his process of becoming something definite." </span></p>
<p><span>- p. 22 from the highly recommended essay "<a href="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2359" target="_blank">Two Conceptions of Power</a>."</span></p> Yeah, t - and I tend more tow…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-12-15:5301756:Comment:632242015-12-15T19:32:03.370ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>Yeah, t - and I tend more towards Evan's take on "the self" - a construction.</p>
<p>I find it mildly interesting and pleasing that <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/feminine-masculine-typology-play?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A63048&xg_source=activity" target="_self">what I just posted</a>, before reading this, as an elaboration on the feminine-masculine typology thread, speaks a little to the needs and utility of 'self', though I have plenty of uncertainty…</p>
<p>Yeah, t - and I tend more towards Evan's take on "the self" - a construction.</p>
<p>I find it mildly interesting and pleasing that <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/feminine-masculine-typology-play?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A63048&xg_source=activity" target="_self">what I just posted</a>, before reading this, as an elaboration on the feminine-masculine typology thread, speaks a little to the needs and utility of 'self', though I have plenty of uncertainty around the phenomenon/condition.</p> New Thompson interview. This…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-12-14:5301756:Comment:630002015-12-14T22:49:55.393ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p><a href="http://www.sutrajournal.com/waking-dreaming-being-in-conversation-with-evan-thompson-by-vikram-zutshi" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">New Thompson interview</a>. This Q&A reminds me of my work in the <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor" target="_self">Batchelor thread</a>.</p>
<p class="interview-question"><strong>Vikram Zutshi:</strong> Have you delved into the Self/No-Self debate between Hindus and Buddhists? Some schools of Buddhism…</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sutrajournal.com/waking-dreaming-being-in-conversation-with-evan-thompson-by-vikram-zutshi" target="_blank">New Thompson interview</a>. This Q&A reminds me of my work in the <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor" target="_self">Batchelor thread</a>.</p>
<p class="interview-question"><strong>Vikram Zutshi:</strong> Have you delved into the Self/No-Self debate between Hindus and Buddhists? Some schools of Buddhism come very close to the Vedic concepts of Atman and Brahman, while others reject it outright. What is your conclusion?</p>
<p><strong>Evan Thompson:</strong> This debate is fascinating. It developed over many centuries and millennia in Indian philosophy. The concepts of atman and anatman were constantly evolving. On the one hand, there’s a sharp opposition between, say, Abhidharma Buddhist philosophy, which holds that what we call a ‘self’ or ‘person’ is ultimately only a collection of impersonal and momentary mental and physical events (dharmas), and Hindu Nyāya philosophy, which holds that the self exists and is an independent thing or substance. On the other hand, the Mahayana Buddhist idea of an innate Buddha nature (Tathāgatagarbha) seems conceptually rather close to the Advaita Vedānta notion of atman or atman-Brahman nonduality. All these philosophical twists and turns provide a good example of how we can’t talk about Indian conceptions of self or non-self as if they were monolithic; we have to refer to specific thinkers and the evolving context of philosophical debate and contemplative practice.</p>
<p>My own view, which I describe in the last chapter of <em>Waking, Dreaming, Being</em>, is that the self is a kind of construction, but not an illusion. It’s not a ready made, independent thing or substance; it’s a constructed process or a process undergoing constant construction. As such, it serves useful functions, but identifying with those processes or functions as if they were an independent thing causes suffering. So my view incorporates Buddhist ideas but disagrees with versions of Buddhist philosophy that say the self is strictly an illusion.</p> See this article on the on/of…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-01:5301756:Comment:629022015-11-01T21:14:34.476ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>See <a href="http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185865-scientists-discover-the-on-off-switch-for-human-consciousness-deep-within-the-brain" target="_blank">this</a> article on the on/off switch for consciousness.</p>
<p><span id="intelliTXT">When [...] the <em>claustrum</em> is electrically stimulated, consciousness — self-awareness, sentience, whatever you want to call it — appears to turn off completely. When the stimulation is removed, consciousness returns. [...]…</span></p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185865-scientists-discover-the-on-off-switch-for-human-consciousness-deep-within-the-brain" target="_blank">this</a> article on the on/off switch for consciousness.</p>
<p><span id="intelliTXT">When [...] the <em>claustrum</em> is electrically stimulated, consciousness — self-awareness, sentience, whatever you want to call it — appears to turn off completely. When the stimulation is removed, consciousness returns. [...]</span> <span id="intelliTXT">Curiously, even though stimulating the claustrum removed consciousness, the patient was still awake. Consciousness is often discussed in relation to wakefulness, but seemingly they are not as closely connected as originally thought."</span></p> Michel Bitbol reviews the boo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-10-20:5301756:Comment:627252015-10-20T16:05:32.590ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Michel Bitbol <a href="http://michel.bitbol.pagesperso-orange.fr/Waking_Thompson_Review.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">reviews</a> the book.</p>
<p>"Thompson’s book thus comes close to what I consider an ideal of consciousness studies: <br></br> opening them to the full range of experiences that may occur in human conscious life <br></br> (and beyond), taking into account all the data that have been accumulated in various <br></br> spiritual traditions about such experiences, and yet remaining…</p>
<p>Michel Bitbol <a rel="nofollow" href="http://michel.bitbol.pagesperso-orange.fr/Waking_Thompson_Review.pdf" target="_blank">reviews</a> the book.</p>
<p>"Thompson’s book thus comes close to what I consider an ideal of consciousness studies: <br/> opening them to the full range of experiences that may occur in human conscious life <br/> (and beyond), taking into account all the data that have been accumulated in various <br/> spiritual traditions about such experiences, and yet remaining painstakingly critical about <br/> any speculative over-interpretation of these experiences" (102).</p> Recent Thompson interview on…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-09-26:5301756:Comment:621912015-09-26T21:40:19.205ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Recent Thompson interview on the book:</p>
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<p>Recent Thompson interview on the book:</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6C_PPasgvj4?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
</p> Yes, I discussed this on-off…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-09-17:5301756:Comment:624062015-09-17T14:15:12.329ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Yes, I discussed this on-off phenomenon <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59808" target="_self">early on</a> in this thread.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>DavidM58 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A59365&page=8#5301756Comment62146"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Very interesting. As…</p>
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<p>Yes, I discussed this on-off phenomenon <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59808" target="_self">early on</a> in this thread.<br/> <br/> <cite>DavidM58 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A59365&page=8#5301756Comment62146"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Very interesting. As Thompson stated in the first post:</p>
<p>"The moral of these new studies isn’t that perception is strictly discrete, but rather that it’s rhythmic; it happens through successive rhythmic pulses (an idea James also proposed), instead of as one continuous flow."</p>
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<p>This supports the emphasis in my paper on the pattern of the Pulse and its role in all systems. Also interesting how he correlates William James and Abhidharma, as Frankenberry does in Religion and Radical Empiricism. And how the 5 phases correlate with <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/xn/detail/5301756:Comment:58476" target="_self">H.N. Wieman's 4 or 5 sub-events</a> related to what he called "the creative event" or "creative interchange."</p>
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</blockquote> t, this mindfulness research…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-09-12:5301756:Comment:621522015-09-12T03:13:33.394ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>t, this mindfulness research is interesting to me. There is a vague sense that I may be a little more loose, free, and could be sloppy in my cognitional associations following some of the stuff I dabble in.</p>
<p>So, meditators - maybe some caution about generalizing benefit :)<br></br> <br></br> <cite>theurj said:…</cite></p>
<p>t, this mindfulness research is interesting to me. There is a vague sense that I may be a little more loose, free, and could be sloppy in my cognitional associations following some of the stuff I dabble in.</p>
<p>So, meditators - maybe some caution about generalizing benefit :)<br/> <br/> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/waking-dreaming-being-by-evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A62150&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment62150"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Might <a rel="nofollow" href="http://neurosciencenews.com/false-memory-mindful-meditation-psychology-2605/" target="_blank">this</a> account for how meditative traditions claim direct experience of ultimate reality based on their philosophical indoctrination?</p>
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