Toto, I Have the Feeling We're Not in Kansas Anymore - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T10:14:24Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/toto-i-have-the-feeling-were?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A10034&xg_raw_resources=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNo problem; I hate it when th…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-08:5301756:Comment:120082011-04-08T14:38:43.554ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
No problem; I hate it when that happens.
No problem; I hate it when that happens. Balder. I had written a respo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-07:5301756:Comment:122022011-04-07T11:10:15.195Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p>Balder. I had written a respose but lost it. (I dislike the keyboard on this new netbook. it's alot like my old one. it highlights paragraphs randomly then deletes them as you type or it simply leaves the page. i'll try again later. i'm tired and want to read dostoevsky before bed.)</p>
<p>Balder. I had written a respose but lost it. (I dislike the keyboard on this new netbook. it's alot like my old one. it highlights paragraphs randomly then deletes them as you type or it simply leaves the page. i'll try again later. i'm tired and want to read dostoevsky before bed.)</p> The passage Ed (helpfully) qu…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-03:5301756:Comment:110132011-04-03T02:26:52.660ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>The passage Ed (helpfully) quoted is not the one I was recalling, but it was related. In the one I recalled, it seemed to me that you were rejecting the idea or <em>possibility</em> of a post-formal stage of development, of any mode of cognition developmentally higher than formal operations, not just the coherence of a (rational?) "theory" of trans-rationality. But if I was mistaken about that, that's good. I'm glad to hear it. :-)</p>
<br/>
<p>The passage Ed (helpfully) quoted is not the one I was recalling, but it was related. In the one I recalled, it seemed to me that you were rejecting the idea or <em>possibility</em> of a post-formal stage of development, of any mode of cognition developmentally higher than formal operations, not just the coherence of a (rational?) "theory" of trans-rationality. But if I was mistaken about that, that's good. I'm glad to hear it. :-)</p>
<br/> Hi Balder,
I guess I'm not qu…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-03:5301756:Comment:115062011-04-03T02:06:38.363Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p>Hi Balder,</p>
<p>I guess I'm not quite sure why you would say that I am opposed to the idea of trans-rationality <em>in principle</em> when I specifically stated that my sense is that any <em>theory</em> of trans-rationality would be problematic.</p>
<p>cheers. :-)</p>
<p>Hi Balder,</p>
<p>I guess I'm not quite sure why you would say that I am opposed to the idea of trans-rationality <em>in principle</em> when I specifically stated that my sense is that any <em>theory</em> of trans-rationality would be problematic.</p>
<p>cheers. :-)</p> As historian and archivist I…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-02:5301756:Comment:115032011-04-02T13:41:43.765ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>As historian and archivist I thought I'd present some excerpts from the old Gaia IPS <a href="https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3ket5n91z-5Yzc0YmQ3ZWQtOTM0Mi00YWQzLWEyMmYtZTBlNzM1ZTY1ZDYy&hl=en" target="_blank">thread on the MHC</a>:</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">kelamuni said Oct 9, 2008, 1:22 PM: Why do we need to think in terms of postformal stages of cognitive capacities? Admitting that there may indeed be a certain “hierarchy” to thought, can we not simply say that there…</p>
<p>As historian and archivist I thought I'd present some excerpts from the old Gaia IPS <a href="https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3ket5n91z-5Yzc0YmQ3ZWQtOTM0Mi00YWQzLWEyMmYtZTBlNzM1ZTY1ZDYy&hl=en" target="_blank">thread on the MHC</a>:</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">kelamuni said Oct 9, 2008, 1:22 PM: Why do we need to think in terms of postformal stages of cognitive capacities? Admitting that there may indeed be a certain “hierarchy” to thought, can we not simply say that there are different orders of thinking?</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Balder said Oct 9, 2008, 1:30 PM: Must certain orders be mastered, or at least realized with some degree of proficiency, before others are available? I expect the answer would be yes, with regard to some, and perhaps no, with regard to others. For those which do appear to rest upon or depend upon other orders, and which therefore exhibit a pattern of sequential unfolding or development, “stage” seems like a workable term. It seems to me that there are likely both different stages and different orders or types of thinking or cognition.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">kelamuni said Oct 9, 2008, 2:15 PM: I would say that that might already be implied by the notion of order.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Balder said Oct 9, 2008, 2:18 PM: Might be, yes. Higher order? Developmental order? Alternative order?</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">kelamuni said Oct 10, 2008, 1:21 PM: Still, its seems misleading to speak of stages of development in this context.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> I recalled a conversation we…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-02:5301756:Comment:110112011-04-02T06:00:29.519ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
I recalled a conversation we had back on the old Gaia IPS, where you seemed to be criticizing the notion of any development beyond "rational," and I asked you if you accepted a developmental progression up <em>to</em> rational, then why draw the ceiling there? And you said you would get back to me on that, but never did. But I certainly may have misunderstood you (which is why I said "seem" in the sentence to you that you quoted above. :-) ).
I recalled a conversation we had back on the old Gaia IPS, where you seemed to be criticizing the notion of any development beyond "rational," and I asked you if you accepted a developmental progression up <em>to</em> rational, then why draw the ceiling there? And you said you would get back to me on that, but never did. But I certainly may have misunderstood you (which is why I said "seem" in the sentence to you that you quoted above. :-) ). Hi Balder,
You say, "I do not…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-02:5301756:Comment:115022011-04-02T05:23:02.645Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p>Hi Balder,</p>
<p>You say, "I do not understand why you seem also to reject <em>in principle</em> the possibility of development beyond present stages of rational cognition, especially if you accept that cognition does exhibit development up to adolescence or early adulthood."</p>
<p>Why do you say this? Or, what have I said that leads you to think this?</p>
<p>cheers.<br/><br/></p>
<p>Hi Balder,</p>
<p>You say, "I do not understand why you seem also to reject <em>in principle</em> the possibility of development beyond present stages of rational cognition, especially if you accept that cognition does exhibit development up to adolescence or early adulthood."</p>
<p>Why do you say this? Or, what have I said that leads you to think this?</p>
<p>cheers.<br/><br/></p> whom moi? but some do accord…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-02:5301756:Comment:109072011-04-02T01:13:35.470Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>whom moi? but some do according to wiki on the adjustment bureau:</p>
<h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Religious_themes">Religious themes</span></h2>
<p>The film is said to have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian">Judeo-Christian</a> theological implications, such as an <a class="mw-redirect" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotent" title="Omnipotent">omnipotent</a> and …</p>
<p>whom moi? but some do according to wiki on the adjustment bureau:</p>
<h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Religious_themes">Religious themes</span></h2>
<p>The film is said to have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian">Judeo-Christian</a> theological implications, such as an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotent" class="mw-redirect" title="Omnipotent">omnipotent</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscient" class="mw-redirect" title="Omniscient">omniscient</a> god,<sup id="cite_ref-Judeo-Christian_1_13-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Judeo-Christian_1-13"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-Jud.C3.A6o-Christian_2_14-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Jud.C3.A6o-Christian_2-14"><span>[</span>15<span>]</span></a></sup> as well as the concepts of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will">free will</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination">predestination</a>.<sup id="cite_ref-Free_Will_15-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Free_Will-15"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-Predestination_16-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Predestination-16"><span>[</span>17<span>]</span></a></sup> Moreover, it has been speculated that the Chairman is actually a version of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God">God</a>,<sup id="cite_ref-Chairman_17-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Chairman-17"><span>[</span>18<span>]</span></a></sup> while his caseworkers are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel" title="Angel">angels</a>.<sup id="cite_ref-Caseworkers_1_6-1" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Caseworkers_1-6"><span>[</span>7<span>]</span></a></sup><sup id="cite_ref-Caseworkers_2_7-1" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Caseworkers_2-7"><span>[</span>8<span>]</span></a></sup> The director of the film, George Nolfi, stated that the "intention of this film is to raise questions."<sup id="cite_ref-Intention_of_Film_18-0" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Intention_of_Film-18"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a></sup> Because of this many Christians have seen this movie as an allegory to Christianity, like the book and film series <i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Narnia">The Chronicles of Narnia</a></i>.<sup id="cite_ref-Free_Will_15-1" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjustment_Bureau#cite_note-Free_Will-15"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a></sup></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>but yeah, personally, i love a good story! i just don't have very much attachment to ANY of them, including my own.......</span></p>
<h2><span class="editsection">[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Adjustment_Bureau&action=edit&section=5" title="Edit section: Release">edit</a>]</span></h2>
<div><h2><span class="mw-headline" id="Release"> </span></h2>
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<p><br/><br/><cite>kelamuni said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/toto-i-have-the-feeling-were?page=2&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A11009&x=1#5301756Comment11009"><div><p><br/>i very much hope you are not giving theistic intentions to phillip k. dick`s wonderful story. ;-)</p>
<p><br/><cite>andrew said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>perhaps it's time that kela had a meet-up with the chairman of the adjustment bureau?lol</div>
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</blockquote> i very much hope you are not…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-01:5301756:Comment:110092011-04-01T22:37:34.475Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p><br/>i very much hope you are not giving theistic intentions to phillip k. dick`s wonderful story. ;-)</p>
<p><br/><cite>andrew said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>perhaps it's time that kela had a meet-up with the chairman of the adjustment bureau?lol</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br/>i very much hope you are not giving theistic intentions to phillip k. dick`s wonderful story. ;-)</p>
<p><br/><cite>andrew said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>perhaps it's time that kela had a meet-up with the chairman of the adjustment bureau?lol</div>
</blockquote> Thanks theurg! All of this ti…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-04-01:5301756:Comment:116012011-04-01T22:32:34.266Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
<p>Thanks theurg! All of this ties into my essay on expressionism and the horror tradition in film, which is still in the works. I can`t remember how Langer`s name first came up in my research but it did.</p>
<p><br></br><cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>This article by Donald Drydan called "<a href="http://www.anthonyflood.com/drydenlangerjames.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Langer and James</a>: Art and the dynamics of the stream of consciousness" explores the relation of…</p>
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</blockquote>
<p>Thanks theurg! All of this ties into my essay on expressionism and the horror tradition in film, which is still in the works. I can`t remember how Langer`s name first came up in my research but it did.</p>
<p><br/><cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>This article by Donald Drydan called "<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.anthonyflood.com/drydenlangerjames.htm">Langer and James</a>: Art and the dynamics of the stream of consciousness" explores the relation of Langer's ideas to those of L&J in section 3, "A cognitive basis for expressiveness of art: experiential realism and metaphorical projection." For example:</p>
<p>"<span style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">How can works of art perform the cognitive and semantic functions that Langer’s theory attributes to them? One answer is suggested by the work of George Lakoff (1987) and Mark Johnson (1987), who have argued that human experience is structured in significant ways prior to, and independent of, language and concepts, and that conceptual structures are meaningful because they are grounded in the kinds of experiences with real-world objects and situations that take place by means of general capacities such as gestalt perception, motor movements, and the formation of mental images. It is this <i>basic-level physical experience</i> that provides the preconceptual foundation for language and other cognitive functions."</span></p>
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