The Value of Nothing - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T10:11:31Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-value-of-nothing?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A1751&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGadfly said:These new economi…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-12:5301756:Comment:18532010-06-12T23:47:00.000ZChristophehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/Christophe
<cite>Gadfly said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-value-of-nothing?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A1848&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment1848"><div>These new economic systems are wonderful and easy as long as the inventors are willing to accept the responsilbity if they don't work.</div>
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Economic Innovators? Responsibility? Ahahahahahahaha<br />
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Come on. Milton "I don't think I was ever regarded as evil" Friedman proved that the…
<cite>Gadfly said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-value-of-nothing?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A1848&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment1848"><div>These new economic systems are wonderful and easy as long as the inventors are willing to accept the responsilbity if they don't work.</div>
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Economic Innovators? Responsibility? Ahahahahahahaha<br />
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Come on. Milton "I don't think I was ever regarded as evil" Friedman proved that the opposite is true. You can get away with almost anything as long as you do it in the name of growing prosperity and reducing taxes for "the people". Nobody will ever try to hang you at the end of a hemp rope. These are civilized times after all.<br />
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And then of course, what could ever be more effective than doing <i>nothing</i> to control the markets. Everybody knows that emptiness is the highest state of all, even Ken Wilberitis says so. You just go check it on the webz. It's the same with the ladies, give them a finger and they take your arm. Give them nothing at all and they will come running after you. Crazy shit but that's how the world keeps turing around. You better recognize this, Man. Grow up, dude. Don't be a dreamer like them frekking communists or something.<br />
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x-o I was mistaken. The Schumache…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-08:5301756:Comment:17642010-06-08T15:33:14.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
I was mistaken. The Schumacher library contains two of Wilber’s books, <i>The Holographic Paradigm</i> and <i>Up from Eden</i>. No Raj Patel though.<br />
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The following excerpts are from the <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/newsletters/10feb11.htm" target="_blank">2/11/10 SS newsletter</a>. Again, sounds more like Patel or Wilber’s economics?<br />
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The Great Transition [in the UK]<br />
<br />
The report sets out seven main interventions. These include:<br />
<br />
- A Great Revaluing to make sure that prices reflect…
I was mistaken. The Schumacher library contains two of Wilber’s books, <i>The Holographic Paradigm</i> and <i>Up from Eden</i>. No Raj Patel though.<br />
<br />
The following excerpts are from the <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/newsletters/10feb11.htm" target="_blank">2/11/10 SS newsletter</a>. Again, sounds more like Patel or Wilber’s economics?<br />
<br />
The Great Transition [in the UK]<br />
<br />
The report sets out seven main interventions. These include:<br />
<br />
- A Great Revaluing to make sure that prices reflect true social and environmental costs.<br />
- A Great Rebalancing that sets out a new productive relationship between markets, society and the state.<br />
- A Great Economic Irrigation that helps money and investment flow to where it is most needed.<br />
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But how do we get there? The Great Transition suggests a universal Citizen's Endowment of between £40,000 and £50,000 to give every adult an equal chance in life and the opportunity to invest in education, a business or local productive assets. This would be funded by a phased rise in<br />
inheritance tax on all estates up to 67 per cent and would go a long way to reducing the massive inequalities of inherited wealth in the UK.<br />
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Community land trusts are also central to The Great Transition. The report also proposes redistributing working time by setting out a four-day working week for everyone that would cut GDP by a third without a major loss of jobs.<br />
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There would be a major reorganisation of business, with publicly listed companies progressively transferring shares to their staff, giving them real control over the companies where they work. This would lead to the creation of a series of co-operatives, operating in regulated markets, and subject to<br />
competition from new companies. This is designed to change power relations within workplaces, creating a form of economic democracy.<br />
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There would be new variable consumption taxes, replacing income tax, reflecting the social and environmental costs of goods. A windfall tax on the profits of fossil fuel companies, for example, could channel funds into clean energy projects. There would be government lending for large-scale<br />
green energy and transport projects, channelled through a national Green Investment Bank. There would be a new national Housing Bank, more along the lines of those in the USA, offering people the opportunity to transfer a portion of their mortgage debt into equity and paying social rent on the<br />
balance.<br />
<br />
There would be new regulations on the reserve requirements of private banks, which would be related to the social and environmental value of their investments. This is intended to engineer a 'race to the top', avoiding the more familiar race to the bottom, at the same time as reducing speculation<br />
and credit bubbles. I also found the following es…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-07:5301756:Comment:17622010-06-07T21:21:29.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
I also found the following essay by Gar Alperovitz in the Schumacher Society archive. I’ve referenced Alperovitz before and his book America Beyond Capitalism (Wiley, 2005). See <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/publications/alperovitz_06.html" target="_blank">“A direct stake in economic life</a>: worker-owned firms.” And again, this sounds much more like Patel than Wilber. Funny how there is not a trace of Wilber at the Schumacher Society. (Or Patel either, for that matter.)
I also found the following essay by Gar Alperovitz in the Schumacher Society archive. I’ve referenced Alperovitz before and his book America Beyond Capitalism (Wiley, 2005). See <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/publications/alperovitz_06.html" target="_blank">“A direct stake in economic life</a>: worker-owned firms.” And again, this sounds much more like Patel than Wilber. Funny how there is not a trace of Wilber at the Schumacher Society. (Or Patel either, for that matter.) Here’s a link to Schumacher’s…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-07:5301756:Comment:17612010-06-07T19:42:18.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
Here’s a link to Schumacher’s essay <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/buddhist_economics/english.html" target="_blank">“Buddhist Economics.”</a> He sounds a lot like Patel to me, and Schumacher is credited with being “integral” long before the prime kennilingusoro. See for example <a href="http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm/" target="_blank">Excerpt G</a> discussing <i>A Guide for the Perplexed</i> as “the best introduction to this traditional notion” of the…
Here’s a link to Schumacher’s essay <a href="http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/buddhist_economics/english.html" target="_blank">“Buddhist Economics.”</a> He sounds a lot like Patel to me, and Schumacher is credited with being “integral” long before the prime kennilingusoro. See for example <a href="http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm/" target="_blank">Excerpt G</a> discussing <i>A Guide for the Perplexed</i> as “the best introduction to this traditional notion” of the Great Chain’s holarchy. The same sentiment was reiterated in <i>Integral Spirituality</i>, Appendix I. I understand that you prefer…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-07:5301756:Comment:17602010-06-07T18:37:17.000ZChristophehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/Christophe
I understand that you prefer to be skeptic about the above proposal. But let me remind you that the notion of second tier does not stand and fall with the integrity of Ken WIlber, but has been proposed in slightly different terms by Maslow, Graves, Gebser, Habermas, etc. etc.<br />
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We could also call it post-post-modern but this really does sound silly. The foundation of such a perspective which outgrows liberal pluralism has also been put forward by writers like Zizek, Badiou, Agamben and others.…
I understand that you prefer to be skeptic about the above proposal. But let me remind you that the notion of second tier does not stand and fall with the integrity of Ken WIlber, but has been proposed in slightly different terms by Maslow, Graves, Gebser, Habermas, etc. etc.<br />
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We could also call it post-post-modern but this really does sound silly. The foundation of such a perspective which outgrows liberal pluralism has also been put forward by writers like Zizek, Badiou, Agamben and others. All of which also happen to be christians (of some sorts). Somehow they seem to believe that Jesus Christ and Universalism cannot be seperated and maintain a quantum entanglement regardless of circumstances. (Dont quote me with this)<br />
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Goodchild himself is a Christian Theology and Philosophy Prof, and a follower of Gilles Deleuze, another writer whom I consider beyond the reach of green discworld dwellers. I know no other author who writes so directly with and about the causal with no sanctification whatsoever. It's refreshing, really.<br />
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So, please, if it be your will, then overcome your leftist paranoia of a New World Order and give the idea of second tier financial institutions a chance. Of course this could be manipulated and perverted. There should never be just one institution, but several, at least one on each continent, no more than, let's say three or four on each, and they should compete with each other in finding the best future investments that they can find.<br />
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Give Justice a chance. theurj said:It might also be…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-06:5301756:Comment:17592010-06-06T20:10:44.000ZSteven Nickesonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/StevenNickeson
<cite>theurj said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-value-of-nothing?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A1751&x=1#5301756Comment1757"><div>It might also be instructive to see what Chris Cowen (the "other" Spiral Dynamics guy) says about this 2nd-tier business. After all, it was Graves who coined the term, and Beck& Wilber (when they were together) who absconded and inflated it into its current bastardized usage. See this…</div>
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<cite>theurj said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-value-of-nothing?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A1751&x=1#5301756Comment1757"><div>It might also be instructive to see what Chris Cowen (the "other" Spiral Dynamics guy) says about this 2nd-tier business. After all, it was Graves who coined the term, and Beck& Wilber (when they were together) who absconded and inflated it into its current bastardized usage. See this <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.spiraldynamics.org/faq_levels.htm" target="_blank">SD FAQ</a>.</div>
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Edward,<br />
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Thanks for posting Cowen's extensive FAQ pages. I've been surfing them for several hours (quite a sophisticated update on what they had up several years ago). They demonstrate and redemonstrate far better than I can write how talk about 2nd tier is only coherent for those playing the subjective Kennilingist, Integral® language games. From my point of view I can see how Goodchild could be viewed as just another mythical Christian believer elaborating on JC's comment in passing that the poor are always with us and who is making a proposal on how to shift the burden of tyranny onto the shoulders of just a different set of monetary technicians. Edward,
Right you are on the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-06:5301756:Comment:17582010-06-06T15:48:03.000ZSteven Nickesonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/StevenNickeson
Edward,<br />
<br />
Right you are on the Sara/Commons approaches. I had forgotten that we had already discussed those issues. As far as Edwards goes, I never could get more than a couple of paragraphs into those interviews before my eyes glazed over and my head began to hurt; glad though he took some shots at Russ.
Edward,<br />
<br />
Right you are on the Sara/Commons approaches. I had forgotten that we had already discussed those issues. As far as Edwards goes, I never could get more than a couple of paragraphs into those interviews before my eyes glazed over and my head began to hurt; glad though he took some shots at Russ. It might also be instructive…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-06:5301756:Comment:17572010-06-06T15:42:05.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
It might also be instructive to see what Chris Cowen (the "other" Spiral Dynamics guy) says about this 2nd-tier business. After all, it was Graves who coined the term, and Beck& Wilber (when they were together) who absconded and inflated it into its current bastardized usage. See this <a href="http://www.spiraldynamics.org/faq_levels.htm" target="_blank">SD FAQ</a>.
It might also be instructive to see what Chris Cowen (the "other" Spiral Dynamics guy) says about this 2nd-tier business. After all, it was Graves who coined the term, and Beck& Wilber (when they were together) who absconded and inflated it into its current bastardized usage. See this <a href="http://www.spiraldynamics.org/faq_levels.htm" target="_blank">SD FAQ</a>. Steven: "Edward, I know that…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-06:5301756:Comment:17512010-06-06T15:04:13.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
Steven: "Edward, I know that Russ is a friend and colleague of your friend Sarah whozits Ross, but truth be told she's in the same consulting racket as he, specialty non-profits, and anyone who has served time in a non-profit knows that here there isn't any greater class of exploited wage slaves outside of the child labor sweat shops of Indonesia. These people make me sick."<br />
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Friendship notwithstanding, as you know I've also recently criticized heavily Sara's (Common's) MHC and how it is used…
Steven: "Edward, I know that Russ is a friend and colleague of your friend Sarah whozits Ross, but truth be told she's in the same consulting racket as he, specialty non-profits, and anyone who has served time in a non-profit knows that here there isn't any greater class of exploited wage slaves outside of the child labor sweat shops of Indonesia. These people make me sick."<br />
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Friendship notwithstanding, as you know I've also recently criticized heavily Sara's (Common's) MHC and how it is used to bolster slave labor. And btw, in Mark Edwards gazillion part interview in ILR he also challenges a number of Russ' "integral" assumptions about leadership. The main reason why I think G…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-06:5301756:Comment:17502010-06-06T08:37:23.000ZChristophehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/Christophe
The main reason why I think Goodchild is second tier is that in his book, he avoids all of the typical mistakes of green boomeritis, which I would characterize as permissively libertarian, naively pacifistic, hopelessly romantic, lost in utopian thought-buildings, delved in african grassroots movements, helplessly caught in endless and friutless debate, secretely hopeless about achieveing anything while maintaining an optimistic 'we can do this together' persona. Ha. Fair enough.<br />
<br />
This is what…
The main reason why I think Goodchild is second tier is that in his book, he avoids all of the typical mistakes of green boomeritis, which I would characterize as permissively libertarian, naively pacifistic, hopelessly romantic, lost in utopian thought-buildings, delved in african grassroots movements, helplessly caught in endless and friutless debate, secretely hopeless about achieveing anything while maintaining an optimistic 'we can do this together' persona. Ha. Fair enough.<br />
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This is what second tier is not. Then what is it? Maybe something like the following:<br />
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"At the End of modernity, one encoutners a peculiar paradox, for the dream of a secular order based on property, liberty, and money is merely an abstraction. In abstract representation, one accounts all as wholly positive because one counts only the money or ideas that may be substituted for produced realities.One does not count the conditions of production.. One does not count the investment of nutrition, attention, and devotion. One does not count the flesh and blood that is given to make credit, cooperation and production possible. <i>Thus, the cost of a bloodless ideal is paid for immeasurably in uncounted flesh and blood.</i> The dream of liberty ends in tyranny. Furthermore, little is achieved by denouncing the abstractions of the formal economy in the name of values grounded in subsistence, sustainability, and life, because such values remain abstractions that demand the total commitment of flesh and blood. <i>Life itself inescapably involves sacrifice, cruelty, exploitation, incorporation, and consumption.</i> It is not necessary to agree with Nietzsche that all life is will to power. It is, however, possible to agree with the Buddha that all life is suffering while making the opposite, Nietzschean Judgement:<br />
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>>You want if possible -- and there is no madder "if possible" -- <i>to abolish suffering</i>; and we? - it really does seem that <i>we</i> would rather increase it and make it worse than it has ever been! Wellbeing as you understand it - that is no goal, that seems to us an <i>end!</i> ... The discipline of suffering, of <i>great</i> suffering - do you not know that it is <i>this</i> discipline alone which has created every elevation of mankind hitherto? That tension of the soul in misfortune which cultivates its strength, its terror at the sight of great destruction, its inventiveness and bravery in undergoing, enduring, interpreting, exploiting misfortune, and whatever of depth, mystery, mask, spirit, cunning and greatness has been bestowed upon it - has it not been bestowed upon it through suffering, through the discipline of great suffering?<<<br />
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The fundamental theological problem we face at the end of modernity is neither that of abolishing suffering nor that of increasing and profiting from it. To ask who will suffer for us so we don't have to is the implicit theology of the pursuit of money. [...] The aim is not to make a judgement for or against life, or for or against suffering, but to respond to it in such a way as to create true health and wealth. Such creation only occurs when life itself is committed. [...] The fundamental problem is this: what is worth the sacrifice of flesh and blood, of time, attention, and devotion? [...] We have to ask: is money worth the sacrifice of flesh and blood?"<br />
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Quote from "Theology of Money", Chapter Seven, The Price of Credit. The above passage appears under the headline: 'Posing the Problem'. So far as an example of what I mean by Second tier.<br />
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He then goes on to suggest a solution how to really transform market society: he proposes to create new financial institutions, Second Tier Banks so to speak, whose only purpose is to create meaningful evaluations of what and who is worth of receiving credit. These institutions would be under the lead of social insitutions like universities for example, independent from governments and public spending, maybe being financed from taxes, or through speculation on the market like every other bank.<br />
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Its a pretty wild shot, admitted, but this proposal is far more visionary than anything Patel has to offer up to date.