The Conveyor Belt - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T06:52:46Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-conveyor-belt?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A53211&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks for the rolling pin ex…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-17:5301756:Comment:530932013-12-17T19:01:30.548ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Thanks for the rolling pin exercise. I'm going to try it.</p>
<p>Thanks for the rolling pin exercise. I'm going to try it.</p> Doctors sometimes proscribe "…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-17:5301756:Comment:531792013-12-17T18:53:46.617ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Doctors sometimes proscribe "fake boat" exercises for people with weak bones and joints. One stands on a board atop a rolling pin, etc. so that instability is generated. It turns out that the muscular efforts to correct for constant tipping send signals to the bones telling them to become more sturdy.</p>
<p>What is interesting here, and in your (very sensible-sounding, to my yogic ear) new exercise is that there is a voluntary and intentional-rational accommodation of a dissonant state. The…</p>
<p>Doctors sometimes proscribe "fake boat" exercises for people with weak bones and joints. One stands on a board atop a rolling pin, etc. so that instability is generated. It turns out that the muscular efforts to correct for constant tipping send signals to the bones telling them to become more sturdy.</p>
<p>What is interesting here, and in your (very sensible-sounding, to my yogic ear) new exercise is that there is a voluntary and intentional-rational accommodation of a dissonant state. The difficulty facing MOM economy (capitalism, etc.) is how to bring it into the right relationship to its existing dissonance. Instability can easily lead to destruction or perpetuation of a system-pattern. Something very specific has to happen in order to begin catalyzing unstable conditions beyond the real of "band-aids".</p> Of course this only works for…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-17:5301756:Comment:533232013-12-17T18:53:06.761ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Of course this only works for those with progressive worldviews; regressives just ignore the dissonance. (See <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysicalnonduality.blogspot.com/2012/10/12-scientific-studies-on-differences.html">this post</a>, #12.)</p>
<p>Of course this only works for those with progressive worldviews; regressives just ignore the dissonance. (See <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysicalnonduality.blogspot.com/2012/10/12-scientific-studies-on-differences.html">this post</a>, #12.)</p> "Dissonant conditions, energe…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-17:5301756:Comment:530922013-12-17T18:42:55.037ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>"Dissonant conditions, energetic instability, entropy, etc. can operate as transformational drivers."</p>
<p>Speaking of which, I just created a new exercise in my yoga program. The driver was pulling my right knee last night after being in an extended bad posture while kneeling in my closet in search of something. The usual yoga tricks I've learned over the years had no effect so I started to experiment with postures and techniques not in the usual yogic repertoire. And I indeed found one…</p>
<p>"Dissonant conditions, energetic instability, entropy, etc. can operate as transformational drivers."</p>
<p>Speaking of which, I just created a new exercise in my yoga program. The driver was pulling my right knee last night after being in an extended bad posture while kneeling in my closet in search of something. The usual yoga tricks I've learned over the years had no effect so I started to experiment with postures and techniques not in the usual yogic repertoire. And I indeed found one that rolls and torques both my hip and knee in a way to alleviate the pain and I suspect will reinforce correct alignment between them. The driver for this creation was the dissonant condition for which there was no prescribed method for dealing with it, which led to a creative solution.</p>
<p>This is the same dynamic I see operating in capitalism, since its progression has been into rampant inequality, corruption etc. It is this dissonant and unstable condition that is leading to new forms of governance and socio-economic structures, not just band-aids on the old structure.</p>
<p></p> I am not very familiar with L…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-11:5301756:Comment:530792013-12-11T19:05:07.121ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>I am not very familiar with Laske. From a quick perusing it appears there is much to be sympathetic with -- although I find the language of going beyond "concepts" and "logical systems" etc. to be a bit disingenuous when people are seeking to improve and extend those very things. Fortunately he is also very open about acknowledging that stuff.</p>
<p>Now the uncovering of the <em>non-identicals</em> and <em>absences</em> within developmental theory is certainly a key component of what I have…</p>
<p>I am not very familiar with Laske. From a quick perusing it appears there is much to be sympathetic with -- although I find the language of going beyond "concepts" and "logical systems" etc. to be a bit disingenuous when people are seeking to improve and extend those very things. Fortunately he is also very open about acknowledging that stuff.</p>
<p>Now the uncovering of the <em>non-identicals</em> and <em>absences</em> within developmental theory is certainly a key component of what I have called the Metaphysics of Adjacency. The "ish" must be made into the basis of structure in order to accommodate both the same-difference of Nonduality and the implicitly divergent differential identities of all cognized beings. The concept of the non-identical which escapes concepts is the only concept upon which we can reliably justify our concepts. This has consequences for all model-builders and all critics of models.</p>
<p>However... how directly can the notion of Absences be used to indicate the "failures" and "fears" to which I have referred in this thread? That is a little more sketchy. In fact it is often difficult to tell in life whether <em>negative</em> refers to local absences or to an unpleasant quality. I have, in this thread, been using the latter meaning. Dissonant conditions, energetic instability, entropy, etc. can operate as transformational drivers whether we are languaging a positively structural model of development or whether we are hesitating and probing to see if the models are more omnidirectional, unpredictable, open-ended.</p>
<p>An integrative model of developmental must do all the following things</p>
<p>(a) make clear the fact and means by which it is creatively generalizing its structures... connecting personal and historical emergences</p>
<p>(b) use a form of reasoning which uses the dialectical link between contingency and necessity, between closed and open, between conceivable and inconceivable, between self-identical and self-differential, presences and absences, as its logical justification</p>
<p>(c) reveal how the principles of practical development (conceived both as structured and open-ended) require both successful stabilization of functional layers... and a particular kind of engagement with the failure of stabilization at those same layers. i.e. what is the role of encountering and tolerating the unpredictable and insecure elements particular to a given layer? how can these be embraced and integrated?</p>
<p>This last point has an interesting additional feature. If we are dealing with the "layer" that stabilizes conventional concepts, structures and identities then its local form of entropy will consist of non-identities, absences, trans-conceivables, etc. So the proponents of such things must be looked upon as partly making general claims about our overall vision AND partly indicating the specific usefulness of encountering and enfolding conceptual instability... freeing that energy for stabilization at the next more complex attractor-station available to the individual.</p>
<p></p> Have you read any of Laske's…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-10:5301756:Comment:532292013-12-10T16:55:36.880ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Have you read any of Laske's work? See for example <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A51649" target="_self">this post</a> and the two above it. Does this excerpt from the link relate to your concern?</p>
<p>"So it is this negativity of systems (such as 'theories') that I am concerned with. [...] Now of course there are two aspects we should not mingle, one is epistemic – how we know – and the other is ontological…</p>
<p>Have you read any of Laske's work? See for example <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A51649" target="_self">this post</a> and the two above it. Does this excerpt from the link relate to your concern?</p>
<p>"So it is this negativity of systems (such as 'theories') that I am concerned with. [...] Now of course there are two aspects we should not mingle, one is epistemic – how we know – and the other is ontological – what there is. And the dialectical assumption is that what we know – through categories and concepts – always falls short of what is, which is often expressed – e.g. by Adorno – as the NON-IDENTICAL which escapes human concepts. Therefore, he spoke of 'negative dialectics,' meaning a dialectics that honors what does not fit into concepts and thus remains non-identical.</p>
<p>"Now, when you look into this non-identical further, you come upon exactly those ABSENCES I spoke about above, gaps that changed thinking or real change will fill – there would be no change without absences pervading reality. This then leads to the distinction Bhaskar makes between 'reality' and 'actuality' where all that the sciences deal with is actuality but never reality which is a deeper concept. So, I guess I am looking for a developmental science – not just of humans – that can cope with Absences and is dialectical enough not to mistake actuality (which is transitory) for reality (which is violently transitory). And it seems to me that 'open systems' like a beehive or a human are transformational, and can’t be fathomed by logical or closed-systems thinking because that kind of thinking does not honor negativity (absences) which lies at the bottom of what is conventionally called 'change.'"</p> theurj said:
So what is the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-08:5301756:Comment:531622013-12-08T17:45:54.571ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-conveyor-belt?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A53160&x=1#5301756Comment53160"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>So what is the difference then between incorporating failures with Wilber's notion of the dignity and the disaster of each level? For example, he notes the dignity of modernity is in differentiating the value spheres. The disaster was their…</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-conveyor-belt?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A53160&x=1#5301756Comment53160"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>So what is the difference then between incorporating failures with Wilber's notion of the dignity and the disaster of each level? For example, he notes the dignity of modernity is in differentiating the value spheres. The disaster was their dissociation so that science became hegemonic and reduced all value spheres to its domain with the hidden representational, epistemological presupposition of complete objectivity. (Note this is one of my main criticisms in the real/false reason thread.) Postmodernism accounted for both modernity's dignities and disasters and reevaluated the other value spheres, and per Wilber their disaster was to throw out modernity's valid scientific discoveries in its domain for an aperspectival and relativistic madness. Whereupon Wilber's integral level took both the dignity and disaster of postmodernity. Granted I have my own criticisms of Wilber's integral level, but it does seem he is at least trying to do what you are describing. So how is your proposal different?</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Dignity and disaster are usually discussed on a grand scale. Incorporating failures may be a similar process but it appears in countless tiny forms. There is no personal entity called Modernity to incorporate the problematic aspects of dissociated value spheres. However an individual person at Orange or any subsequent level will have outstanding moments of anxiety or concern relative to modern styles of concern like "Am I making any reasonable progress in my life?" etc. </p>
<p>One might say that the "disaster" of any level stands out to the vision of a higher level. Conversely, the entropy (or whatever) of a given level is apparent to those who are experiencing from that level in any moment. They must do some kind of packing or organizing of the instability in order to free this situation up for growth. And the form of this packing might or might not resemble our general assumptions about the subsequent layer. More typical forms would be expected to arise later as the outcome or side-effect of finding some way to bind the entropy.</p>
<p>Fundamentally, I am not making a different proposal so much as illuminating a microcosm. In order for the individual to convert their own modernist and postmodernist entropy into a stabilized integralesque layer they will need to undergo many experiences in which these specific styles of insecurity are mixed and blended with a leading-edge cognitive intention of some kind. And even as new levels are relatively stabilized there seems to remain moments of reconnecting with the "disaster" of each previous level. These are, potentially, opportunities to increase the amount of energy that the psyche is conveyor-belting upward. </p>
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</div> Exactly, yes - the failures o…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-08:5301756:Comment:531612013-12-08T17:44:29.725ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Exactly, yes - the failures of the mother are generative and constructive in that sense (provided they are not so drastic and pervasive that the infant's basic needs are not met).</p>
<p>Exactly, yes - the failures of the mother are generative and constructive in that sense (provided they are not so drastic and pervasive that the infant's basic needs are not met).</p> >Like Winnicott's "good e…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-08:5301756:Comment:533082013-12-08T17:33:47.729ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
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<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>>Like Winnicott's "good enough mothering"?</p>
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<p>Sure. Both the mother and the baby move forward only if they have some way to tolerate and enfold the obvious inadequacies of the mother relative to the baby's needs. She must try her best and use this knowledge to perform and operation upon her incompleteness. The infant must also find some way to use a relatively higher mind in order to stabilize the incompleteness of the mother... which of…</p>
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<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>>Like Winnicott's "good enough mothering"?</p>
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<p>Sure. Both the mother and the baby move forward only if they have some way to tolerate and enfold the obvious inadequacies of the mother relative to the baby's needs. She must try her best and use this knowledge to perform and operation upon her incompleteness. The infant must also find some way to use a relatively higher mind in order to stabilize the incompleteness of the mother... which of course can only be done if what she provides meets a bunch of the primary markers. </p>
</div> So what is the difference the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2013-12-08:5301756:Comment:531602013-12-08T15:53:57.922ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>So what is the difference then between incorporating failures with Wilber's notion of the dignity and the disaster of each level? For example, he notes the dignity of modernity is in differentiating the value spheres. The disaster was their dissociation so that science became hegemonic and reduced all value spheres to its domain with the hidden representational, epistemological presupposition of complete objectivity. (Note this is one of my main criticisms in the real/false reason thread.)…</p>
<p>So what is the difference then between incorporating failures with Wilber's notion of the dignity and the disaster of each level? For example, he notes the dignity of modernity is in differentiating the value spheres. The disaster was their dissociation so that science became hegemonic and reduced all value spheres to its domain with the hidden representational, epistemological presupposition of complete objectivity. (Note this is one of my main criticisms in the real/false reason thread.) Postmodernism accounted for both modernity's dignities and disasters and reevaluated the other value spheres, and per Wilber their disaster was to throw out modernity's valid scientific discoveries in its domain for an aperspectival and relativistic madness. Whereupon Wilber's integral level took both the dignity and disaster of postmodernity. Granted I have my own criticisms of Wilber's integral level, but it does seem he is at least trying to do what you are describing. So how is your proposal different?</p>