The 5 Pillars of Planetary Wisdom-Civilization - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T15:53:47Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-5-pillars-of-planetary-wisdom-civilization?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A51766&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThe concern about "systems" a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:569692014-06-24T16:28:32.901ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>The concern about "systems" and "machines" rises very quickly. It is a first veil through which MIP-civ must pass. Partly by a better explication of its proposal. Partly by reminding people that all the horrific systems they are familiar with have been run by human beings. Partly by reminding the evolving consciousness not to be overly attached to interiors and put some thought into how LR systems can be produced to anchor, accelerate and encourage the flourishing of human interiors. </p>
<p>The concern about "systems" and "machines" rises very quickly. It is a first veil through which MIP-civ must pass. Partly by a better explication of its proposal. Partly by reminding people that all the horrific systems they are familiar with have been run by human beings. Partly by reminding the evolving consciousness not to be overly attached to interiors and put some thought into how LR systems can be produced to anchor, accelerate and encourage the flourishing of human interiors. </p> nihiliatedtag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:569682014-06-24T16:24:00.423ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>nihiliated</p>
<p>nihiliated</p> Also see this comment from an…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:570332014-06-24T05:24:57.882ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Also see <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-religion?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A57032" target="_self">this</a> comment from another thread, germane to the recent discussion above.</p>
<p>Also see <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-religion?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A57032" target="_self">this</a> comment from another thread, germane to the recent discussion above.</p> Awww, now I want "DON'T BE AN…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-23:5301756:Comment:569602014-06-23T18:34:49.756ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Awww, now I want "DON'T BE AN "OLEG" t-shirts printed up. </p>
<p>Poor guy. I hope, but do not expect, him to pay more attention to the quotation marks than to the letters that appear to spell his name...</p>
<p>Awww, now I want "DON'T BE AN "OLEG" t-shirts printed up. </p>
<p>Poor guy. I hope, but do not expect, him to pay more attention to the quotation marks than to the letters that appear to spell his name...</p> Of course, for then you'd be…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-23:5301756:Comment:571202014-06-23T18:24:41.401ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Of course, for then you'd be pulling an <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/oleg-linetksy-is-the-enemy-of-god" target="_self">OLEG</a>!</p>
<p>Of course, for then you'd be pulling an <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/oleg-linetksy-is-the-enemy-of-god" target="_self">OLEG</a>!</p> No. Those remarks are not mea…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-23:5301756:Comment:571192014-06-23T18:21:17.197ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>No. Those remarks are not meant to suggest that you are located in one of these two "camps". It is just a preliminary discrimination to orient my general remarks. </p>
<p>I hope, in general, that it does not seem like I am imputing the categorization of the person I am responding to if I begin by clarifying a tactical "forward/back" option that exists within human response patterns to the given topic! </p>
<p>No. Those remarks are not meant to suggest that you are located in one of these two "camps". It is just a preliminary discrimination to orient my general remarks. </p>
<p>I hope, in general, that it does not seem like I am imputing the categorization of the person I am responding to if I begin by clarifying a tactical "forward/back" option that exists within human response patterns to the given topic! </p> Did I say anything about drop…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-23:5301756:Comment:571182014-06-23T18:13:04.776ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Did I say anything about dropping out or not accepting the challenge?</p>
<p>Did I say anything about dropping out or not accepting the challenge?</p> One of the things which disti…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-23:5301756:Comment:570312014-06-23T18:06:52.015ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>One of the things which distinguishes MOA-1 from MOA-2 in any moment of consciousness is whether the question "Who profiles the profilers?" causes us to pause and drop out -- or whether it is accepted as a practical challenge. </p>
<p>Since all systems require, in the broadest sense, administration, we have no alternative. Non-hierarchical theories of development performatively posit themselves at the top of their heirarchy (though they will strenuously deny this). So there is no getting…</p>
<p>One of the things which distinguishes MOA-1 from MOA-2 in any moment of consciousness is whether the question "Who profiles the profilers?" causes us to pause and drop out -- or whether it is accepted as a practical challenge. </p>
<p>Since all systems require, in the broadest sense, administration, we have no alternative. Non-hierarchical theories of development performatively posit themselves at the top of their heirarchy (though they will strenuously deny this). So there is no getting out. We need to be asking ourselves what are the minimum functional requirements that ensure any emerging hierarchical system trends toward open-ended-ness, full spectrum balance, self-improvement, etc. </p>
<p>We already have hierarchies. We already have profiling. What can we do to that in order to make them better? Which moves create a better arrogance? It is certainly far from settled but unless we try to implement our current best guess (which MUST include ongoing improvement and developmental transformation of our guesses) we are subject to the default condition of "whatever constraints currently exist to skew the emerging techno-planetary system according to their own biases.</p>
<p>It would be great to be able to formalize something like a mathematical or structural schematic which defines a "level". Then no one is at "the top" -- even if no one is currently higher than they are on some particular line. Whether or not that is possible is debatable but nonetheless we must try to do something like that. As with most things, we don't really understand it until we give it a try. </p>
<p>My Rules of Metatheory (and I still might do a new version of it) wants to articulate what different versions of metatheory have in common and what practical requirements may impinge upon them. Nobody's "version" can be trusted... if only for the fact that it will irk everyone who is used to viewing through their own concepts of verticality, complexity, etc. A political work of consensus building, even in theory, and a technical work of attempted implementation are what allow us to move past the disagreements which are inevitable and perpetual at the level of theorists engaging in partial examinations of each other's works.</p>
<p></p> On the other hand, who profil…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-22:5301756:Comment:569572014-06-22T16:04:28.656ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>On the other hand, who profiles the profilers? And who determines what 'integral' means? As if obvious from this forum, there is quite a bit of debate about what an integral level is, what it means, how it is conceived. It's far from settled so as to use it as some kind a profiling system.</p>
<p>I'm also reminded of <a href="http://integralleadershipreview.com/11360-41-reflections-complexity-integral-theorizing-towards-agenda-self-reflection/" target="_blank">Montouri's reflections</a> on…</p>
<p>On the other hand, who profiles the profilers? And who determines what 'integral' means? As if obvious from this forum, there is quite a bit of debate about what an integral level is, what it means, how it is conceived. It's far from settled so as to use it as some kind a profiling system.</p>
<p>I'm also reminded of <a href="http://integralleadershipreview.com/11360-41-reflections-complexity-integral-theorizing-towards-agenda-self-reflection/" target="_blank">Montouri's reflections</a> on the last ITC conference.</p>
<p>"One of the historical criticisms of hierarchical theories of development is that the person developing or using the hierarchy almost inevitably finds himself at the top of said hierarchy. Whoops! There’s a not-so-subtle tendency to feel like a master of the universe when the whole map of creation from soup to nuts appears to be laid out before you."</p>
<p>So that's one trap. If we find ourselves at the top of any system we need to wonder about that system.</p>
<p>"The role of systems and complexity thinking in Integral Theory is still not particularly well articulated, in my mind. [...] Interestingly, postformal thinking has been irrigated by two streams, as it were—the dialectical stream, which started out in the pioneering work of Klaus Riegl, Basseches, and the more contextual stream, with Arlin, Commons, Koplowski, Kegan, and others."</p>
<p>This relates to one of my points above, the kind of complexity we use to determine what is even 'integral' in the first place. I've posted quite a bit on this in the <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/complexity-and-postmodernism" target="_self">pomo and complexity thread</a> and elsewhere. And it really isn't as simple as saying we 'integrate' these two forms into a higher level, as that very sentiment is what is being challenged.</p>
<p>We might also recall when I asked Commons about Morin's variety, <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A53206" target="_self">he immediately reduced it</a> to his own horizontal complexity saying it doesn't account for the vertical. Elsewhere I used Lakoff to show how such varieties like Commons can only see it <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A40348" target="_self">in these two versions</a>.</p> Exactly. An "enhanced democr…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-22:5301756:Comment:570292014-06-22T15:22:08.678ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Exactly. An "enhanced democracy" is necessary. And that means both taking advantage of things we understand about improving the righteousness and collective intelligence of our voting and administrative systems as well as working with the emerging technologies of the current epoch. We are already profiling everyone... just not fairly or intelligently. If we do not attempt to actively create a sort of "constitution" for profiling then we will simply succumb to haphazard and predatory…</p>
<p>Exactly. An "enhanced democracy" is necessary. And that means both taking advantage of things we understand about improving the righteousness and collective intelligence of our voting and administrative systems as well as working with the emerging technologies of the current epoch. We are already profiling everyone... just not fairly or intelligently. If we do not attempt to actively create a sort of "constitution" for profiling then we will simply succumb to haphazard and predatory monitoring in which the monitors stand outside of the system. That is both dumb and unjust. The only way to stop profiling exteriors, to start profiling the profilers and to ensure that the hyper-electronic universe is a developmentally oriented universe is to really try to grapple with across the board, individual-empowering, multi-dimensional psycho-behavioral profiling. </p>