"Spiritual Energy": Exploring a Gray Area between the UR and UL Quandrants - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T07:02:09Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/spiritual-energy-exploring-a-gray-area-between-the-ur-and-ul-and?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A54381&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI added this (below) to the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-14:5301756:Comment:546152014-03-14T15:17:28.214ZDarrell R. Moneyhonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DarrellRMoneyhon
<p>I added this (below) to the post where the link led. Placed comment here also, for convenience. </p>
<p>"Would medium or vessel or dharma be a better term than 'body?' Did I use the word dharma correctly? Not sure. Seems I've heard it described as being a sort of vehicle of expression. Work is dharma. Like a car to deliver spirit to earthly manifestations? " </p>
<p>darrell</p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>theurj said:…</cite></p>
<p>I added this (below) to the post where the link led. Placed comment here also, for convenience. </p>
<p>"Would medium or vessel or dharma be a better term than 'body?' Did I use the word dharma correctly? Not sure. Seems I've heard it described as being a sort of vehicle of expression. Work is dharma. Like a car to deliver spirit to earthly manifestations? " </p>
<p>darrell</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/spiritual-energy-exploring-a-gray-area-between-the-ur-and-ul-and#5301756Comment54486"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I have yet to read the entire post yet so this may be redundant. Have you seen <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A4187" target="_self">this post</a> and the two following it, discussing some problems with the Lingam's differentiations between mind-body, energy-body and inner-outer?</p>
<p>You might also appreciate Edwards' essay Through AQAL Eyes, <a href="http://integralworld.net/edwards10.html" target="_blank">part 6</a>, which deals with these issues.</p>
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</blockquote> But is there overlap between…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-14:5301756:Comment:545552014-03-14T15:01:35.096ZDarrell R. Moneyhonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DarrellRMoneyhon
<p>But is there overlap between external and internal energies? Perhaps at a deeper, substratum, level of reality the difference between external and internal energies is either minimized or absent altogether. If Mind is the essence of all else, then the "interior" is actually a kind of "exterior" as well. Or the terms inner and outer, subjective and objective, just don't apply all that well that deep down/in. </p>
<p>Interesting that Wilber's Integral Map includes developmental levels or…</p>
<p>But is there overlap between external and internal energies? Perhaps at a deeper, substratum, level of reality the difference between external and internal energies is either minimized or absent altogether. If Mind is the essence of all else, then the "interior" is actually a kind of "exterior" as well. Or the terms inner and outer, subjective and objective, just don't apply all that well that deep down/in. </p>
<p>Interesting that Wilber's Integral Map includes developmental levels or stages of understanding. While we see them in terms of various "hieghts," there is an assumption also that a "higher" level of understanding reality and the world is also a "deeper" level of understanding. So, in a way, the color-coded stages in the Integral Operating System (or "map") actually hint to a depth dimension. I simply cut to the chase by including it into a metaphysical model of reality, in the form of an "ever-unfolding flare." It is like a little bang version of the big bang. A holographic sort of whole in the part. Each being or self is a little bang, like a solar flare erupting from a Sun/Source. We continue to unfold into a cooling atmosphere where things act in standard Newtonian physics ways as "classical" objects. But the unfolding is also continuously from a non-local, non-Newtonian, Source at the core of self. So this non-dual, or possible or probable nature is also continuously outpouring into the more static surface reality. We Things are not alone! Just the other day, I had the notion of "quantum brimming." By that I mean that for every actual thing I do or act like, the possiblities are kind of pushed to the side. It would be like sticking my fist into a small bucket of water which was full. The water will be displaced and flow over the brim/rim (perhaps tea cup and finger would be better?) of the container/bucket/teacup. Water respresents the fluid possiblities. Actual choices and acts limit and displace the possibilities not acted upon. Do these possible mes or possible acts-by-me merely disappear when decisions collapse the possiblities into particle-like descrete acts? Or do they overflow and hang around me like an aura which I might be able to somehow tap into mentally/intuitively/spiritually? As I was running (when the insight occured -- endorphin-facilitated?) I meditatively gathered up the displaced possiblities and/or probabilities immediately surrounding me. It opened up my system to new possiblities, while not making my fist in the water or finger in the tea go away. I was still running, but also "accompanied" by possibilites. Instead of the "satelite dish" metaphor which picks up signals from a deep quantum and sub-quantum realm (a metaphor I forward in the book), a "saucer" metaphor came to mind. When I either meditate in the way I was doing or when I relate with others my saucer catches some of the displaced possibilities. Others may act as I didn't. By relating with them, I collect some of my own displaced potential/possibility. I get the me I could have been from them. To the extent than I can love then I have a bigger saucer to recapture the potential I lose whenever I narrow things down to a specific action or thought or way of being. My participation in spacetime almost requires a certain amount of "part-icularity," and this particularity limits my possiblilities and potentials to some extent. Fortunately due to quantum brimming, I have a means to recycle the lost potential/possiblities. I always have my trust saucer. Yes, tea cup and finger and spilt tea is the better analogy. </p>
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<p>darrell</p>
<p>Here's a related exploration of that possibility. Another excerpt from my book-in-progress: </p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">Perhaps even projection is not as destortive as we originally assumed. We started off asking “Are the quantum theorists just projecting their own subjectivity onto the objective matter being investigated?” Perhaps that is the wrong question if we hope to achieve a new understanding which might explain the observed <span lang="en-US" xml:lang="en-US">anomalies of the atomic and sub-atomic realm.</span> A more productive question might be “Does the mind have within it the same or similar structure as the so-called objective reality at the atomic and sub-atomic level of investigation?” Whereas the subjective realm of mind may have all sorts of fantasized images and thoughts in it, that doesn't preclude it from having access to a deeper structure of reality. If somehow the mind really does have access to a deeper structure (by being able to go deeper in the flare), then that which was “merely” projected was not fantasy; it was deeper <i>fact</i>. Also if the mind is connected to a deeper substratum of reality, that just might explain why it seems so adept at (as Kant would say) “informing objects.”</font></p>
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<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">From the perspective of a <span lang="en-US" xml:lang="en-US">quantum</span> realm, the real fantasy might be the notions we have about objective reality! Instead of the quantum scientist being delusional, it's the rest of science which is delusional! The rest of science assumed that the questions and answers which applied to surface reality really is reality as a whole, when in fact those views were <i>never the whole truth</i> about reality.</font></p>
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<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">Not only was it not the whole truth; it may not even been the <i>essential</i> truth. What science thinks it knows here at the surface of reality make not even be the essence of reality. Objectivism has to some extent been a myth. A useful myth as far as it goes, but a myth in terms of what the essence of reality really is. If there really is a “quantum reality,” then we can't get there from here (“here” being from the laws that apply to the surface level of reality).</font></p>
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<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">Or perhaps, as we hinted to earlier, the <span lang="en-US" xml:lang="en-US">distinction</span> between objective and subjective reality no longer serves us well, nor has much meaning, at the deeper zones of reality, whether it is the reality of the deep parts of an individual human flare or the deep parts of other objects or beings. <i>Convergence</i> of the different ways of knowing―the quads―happens near the core of the flare.</font></p>
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<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">The reason that the objective way of knowing and the subjective way of knowing seems to blur at the quantum level of reality is because those ways of knowing aren't really separate that deep in. The assumption of a difference between these two ways of knowing is no longer valid there. It is not correct to say that either subjective or objective reality exists there. It may seem to have many of the characteristics of what we call subjective knowing from our perspective up here at the surface, but reality that far in cannot be said to be subjective any more than it can be said to be objective. Neither category applies. </font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman, serif">darre</font></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/spiritual-energy-exploring-a-gray-area-between-the-ur-and-ul-and#5301756Comment54381"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Particularly the 3rd section of Edwards' paper, where he notes the following:</p>
<p>"To begin with, it's clear that some of the energies that Wilber is including in the Upper Right refer to exterior physical phenomena and some of them refer to interior mental phenomena. [...] I suggest that Wilber is having trouble finding labels for them because these subtle energies he is referring to are actually interior energies."</p>
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</blockquote> Will investigate that link to…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-12:5301756:Comment:543822014-03-12T20:32:29.048ZDarrell R. Moneyhonhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DarrellRMoneyhon
<p>Will investigate that link tommorrow. Look's promising, as though "barking up the same tree" I've been barking up recently. </p>
<p> Thanks, </p>
<p> Darrell<br></br> <br></br> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/spiritual-energy-exploring-a-gray-area-between-the-ur-and-ul-and?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A54381&x=1#5301756Comment54486"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I have yet to read the entire post yet so…</p>
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<p>Will investigate that link tommorrow. Look's promising, as though "barking up the same tree" I've been barking up recently. </p>
<p> Thanks, </p>
<p> Darrell<br/> <br/> <cite>theurj said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/spiritual-energy-exploring-a-gray-area-between-the-ur-and-ul-and?page=1&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A54381&x=1#5301756Comment54486"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I have yet to read the entire post yet so this may be redundant. Have you seen <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A4187" target="_self">this post</a> and the two following it, discussing some problems with the Lingam's differentiations between mind-body, energy-body and inner-outer?</p>
<p>You might also appreciate Edwards' essay Through AQAL Eyes, <a href="http://integralworld.net/edwards10.html" target="_blank">part 6</a>, which deals with these issues.</p>
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</blockquote> Particularly the 3rd section…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-12:5301756:Comment:543812014-03-12T17:07:02.253ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Particularly the 3rd section of Edwards' paper, where he notes the following:</p>
<p>"To begin with, it's clear that some of the energies that Wilber is including in the Upper Right refer to exterior physical phenomena and some of them refer to interior mental phenomena. [...] I suggest that Wilber is having trouble finding labels for them because these subtle energies he is referring to are actually interior energies."</p>
<p>Particularly the 3rd section of Edwards' paper, where he notes the following:</p>
<p>"To begin with, it's clear that some of the energies that Wilber is including in the Upper Right refer to exterior physical phenomena and some of them refer to interior mental phenomena. [...] I suggest that Wilber is having trouble finding labels for them because these subtle energies he is referring to are actually interior energies."</p> I have yet to read the entire…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-12:5301756:Comment:544862014-03-12T16:40:55.439ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I have yet to read the entire post yet so this may be redundant. Have you seen <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A4187" target="_self">this post</a> and the two following it, discussing some problems with the Lingam's differentiations between mind-body, energy-body and inner-outer?</p>
<p>You might also appreciate Edwards' essay Through AQAL Eyes,…</p>
<p>I have yet to read the entire post yet so this may be redundant. Have you seen <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A4187" target="_self">this post</a> and the two following it, discussing some problems with the Lingam's differentiations between mind-body, energy-body and inner-outer?</p>
<p>You might also appreciate Edwards' essay Through AQAL Eyes, <a href="http://integralworld.net/edwards10.html" target="_blank">part 6</a>, which deals with these issues.</p>