Rajiv Malhotra's Hindu Challenge to the Integral Community - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T15:51:17Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/rajiv-malhotra-s-hindu-challenge?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59856&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noSome comments on Gier's paper…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-23:5301756:Comment:598562015-01-23T20:06:31.845Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Some comments on Gier's paper that I think is mostly a well thought out accurate assessment. On the first section: there is no one monolithic Hinduism any more than there is one version of Christianity; what we have is a multiplicity of metaphysical assertions spanning the globe over millennia. It seems to me that our task is to try and sort out which ideas have the most resonance and coherency; while at the same time factoring in our cultural conditioning, and being aware of how bias enters…</p>
<p>Some comments on Gier's paper that I think is mostly a well thought out accurate assessment. On the first section: there is no one monolithic Hinduism any more than there is one version of Christianity; what we have is a multiplicity of metaphysical assertions spanning the globe over millennia. It seems to me that our task is to try and sort out which ideas have the most resonance and coherency; while at the same time factoring in our cultural conditioning, and being aware of how bias enters into our assessments. IMO, i think one would reasonably conclude that there is some type of insanity/interference/ incongruence happening here if we were to assess every metaphysical belief that humans have held over the millennia. I get that SDI tries to address this issue.</p>
<p>The second section is on science. I disagree with his basic premise that science tells us anything much about god ( he seems to conclude that science tells us much about god in that it tells us god doesn't exist) ) . Here is a link that explores this issue: </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.free-online.org/free-thinking/lifes-big-questions/science/has-physics-disproved-the-existence-of-god.htm" target="_blank">http://www.free-online.org/free-thinking/lifes-big-questions/scienc...</a></p>
<p>Philosophically speaking, I think the quantum vacuum and Bohm's implicate order may be some kind of interface to subtler realities; but it isn't god or spirit in and of itself. How that ocean of possible information interacts with the human brain and consciousness is a very good question indeed. Which leads to his last section where I agree with his constructive process theology. The difference I have with him there is he seems to conclude that there is not a super intelligence beyond that assessment /framing. I get that it looks that way but I still think it better to remain 'agnostic' on that issue. I am 'agnostic' there in the sense that I think there is. </p>
<p>A note on the fascist thing: Wilber just happens to be situated in a time and place where his home country is acting out in the way empires always do. That is not his fault although history shows that politics co-opts spirituality for its own ends. </p> To be clear, that is not what…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-22:5301756:Comment:600332015-01-22T21:31:56.326Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>To be clear, that is not what i believe about Integral, all I said was that is one perception of Integral Inc. on the world stage ( think of it as my reporting on that perception).</p>
<p>This from todays tom dispatch:</p>
<p><em>Similarly, none of the retreads Hillary, Jeb, or Mitt would bring with them will have a new idea or entertain a thought that wanders off the Washington reservation. And that essentially guarantees one thing: Republican or Democrat, it’ll be dead air to 2020 -- and…</em></p>
<p>To be clear, that is not what i believe about Integral, all I said was that is one perception of Integral Inc. on the world stage ( think of it as my reporting on that perception).</p>
<p>This from todays tom dispatch:</p>
<p><em>Similarly, none of the retreads Hillary, Jeb, or Mitt would bring with them will have a new idea or entertain a thought that wanders off the Washington reservation. And that essentially guarantees one thing: Republican or Democrat, it’ll be dead air to 2020 -- and if either a Bush or a Clinton is then reelected, until 2025, by which time the U.S. would have been led by those two families for <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-no-freshness-in-our-2016-presidential-contest/2015/01/16/f7c4c310-9d8c-11e4-96cc-e858eba91ced_story.html?hpid=z3" target="_blank">28 </a>of the last 36 years. Washington is, in this sense, the land of the walking policy dead and war, safety, security, and intelligence (that is, failure and disaster) are ours to the horizon.</em></p>
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<p>This is a fact, and Wilber's endorsement of these names as Integral(in some sense) is also a fact, at least as far as I can tell. </p>
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<p>Anyway, pondering the Hindu caste system and how that may be playing out in different ways in todays world:) Oh, i can't wait for that post! </p> I'm going to do my best to ke…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-22:5301756:Comment:600292015-01-22T20:24:50.561ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>I'm going to do my best to keep this 4th Reich panel marching in goosestep correctness, I promise. That's just the way I roll.</p>
<p>I'm going to do my best to keep this 4th Reich panel marching in goosestep correctness, I promise. That's just the way I roll.</p> Oh, good! As a half-decently…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-22:5301756:Comment:600282015-01-22T20:15:42.750Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Oh, good! As a half-decently informed layperson, I look forward to that symposium. Hopefully, it doesn't look like this: canned responses from a seeming global 4th reich ministry of spiritual propaganda; one that anticipates all the many grievances and has pre-planned, preconceived solutions. Now, in no way am I saying that that is what Integral is; but there are those who are viewing it like that, and people like Joe Corbett have been pointing out the problems with Integral being too cozy…</p>
<p>Oh, good! As a half-decently informed layperson, I look forward to that symposium. Hopefully, it doesn't look like this: canned responses from a seeming global 4th reich ministry of spiritual propaganda; one that anticipates all the many grievances and has pre-planned, preconceived solutions. Now, in no way am I saying that that is what Integral is; but there are those who are viewing it like that, and people like Joe Corbett have been pointing out the problems with Integral being too cozy with the neoliberal elite establishment. </p>
<p>Here is a tom dispatch link that points out the extant of the neoliberal war machine: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175945/tomgram%3A_nick_turse%2C_a_shadow_war_in_150_countries/" target="_blank">http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175945/tomgram%3A_nick_turse%2C_a_shadow_war_in_150_countries/</a></p>
<p>This looks to me to be a method of making sure the financial interests of 1% of the earth's population is taken care of. And yes, IMO, these issues are related. </p>
<p></p> Yes, I've seen that article b…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-22:5301756:Comment:600242015-01-22T15:56:43.457ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Yes, I've seen that article before; thank you for highlighting it here. Although I appreciate a number of Malhotra's ideas and criticisms, I tend to agree with the author that Malhotra seems to be "over-reaching to be different," and believe he also seems to have a rather one-sided view of Westerners' engagement with India (seeing it almost exclusively in terms of exploitation and appropriation). His interpretation of Wilber's relationship to Indian thought, in particular, seems…</p>
<p>Yes, I've seen that article before; thank you for highlighting it here. Although I appreciate a number of Malhotra's ideas and criticisms, I tend to agree with the author that Malhotra seems to be "over-reaching to be different," and believe he also seems to have a rather one-sided view of Westerners' engagement with India (seeing it almost exclusively in terms of exploitation and appropriation). His interpretation of Wilber's relationship to Indian thought, in particular, seems misguided. It is true that Wilber now appears to be claiming structure- and state-stage attainments that exceed those of Aurobindo, Buddha, and others, and that is certainly questionable; and it is true that Wilber emphasizes certain schools of Hinduism above others (which can be misleading because he often attributes Advaitic interpretations to "the traditions" in general); but the idea that he sees nondualism as fundamentally entailing world-denial is just plain wrong, as far as I can tell. In his transpersonal psychology days, he discussed the "spiritual problem" of causal-level fixation, which can lead to a denigration or simple disregard of physical existence, but to my knowledge he has never insisted that nonduality leads in this direction. <br/><br/>I may have an opportunity to talk with him about all this. A friend is working on putting together a symposium between Malhotra (and some of his colleagues) and Integralists, and I've been invited to take part in it if it goes forward.</p> Excellent paper here:
http:/…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-22:5301756:Comment:600222015-01-22T09:22:22.854Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Excellent paper here: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.academia.edu/5261731/Overreaching_to_be_Different_A_Critique_of_Rajiv_Malhotras_Being_Different" target="_blank">http://www.academia.edu/5261731/Overreaching_to_be_Different_A_Critique_of_Rajiv_Malhotras_Being_Different</a></p>
<p>Excellent paper here: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.academia.edu/5261731/Overreaching_to_be_Different_A_Critique_of_Rajiv_Malhotras_Being_Different" target="_blank">http://www.academia.edu/5261731/Overreaching_to_be_Different_A_Critique_of_Rajiv_Malhotras_Being_Different</a></p> Here is a link to reincarnati…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-21:5301756:Comment:600202015-01-21T17:40:58.772Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Here is a link to reincarnation:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation</a></p>
<p>It seems that most cultures throughout history developed ideas around this issue; it is certainly not unique to India, although it's not hard to concede that India came up with a complex ideology surrounding the idea. To my thinking, reincarnation is not necessarily metaphysical in the sense that nature recycles everything; why not…</p>
<p>Here is a link to reincarnation:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation</a></p>
<p>It seems that most cultures throughout history developed ideas around this issue; it is certainly not unique to India, although it's not hard to concede that India came up with a complex ideology surrounding the idea. To my thinking, reincarnation is not necessarily metaphysical in the sense that nature recycles everything; why not consciousness? So a natural theory surrounding reincarnation is not necessarily incoherent; whether there is an assholon ( super intelligence) over seeing the whole bloody mess is not something humans can know in any definitive, objective sense ( we only end up with conflicting religious ideologies when we walk down that road). </p>
<p>Now, I am happy, that unlike the western academies; the Indian academies still have philosophy and religious departments, I think that is the right move; although it will be interesting to see if India ends up asserting a new theory of everything solely on their own, without the consensus of the global scientific establishment. </p> Spending the day reading thro…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-21:5301756:Comment:600182015-01-21T03:14:51.232Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Spending the day reading through his website; reading reviews of the book; reading comments, etc. I'm starting to get a handle on his perspectives, I think. Does anyone know what India was like prior to western colonialism? Is there any reason to believe that it was different in any significant ways from any other culture through the past few thousand years? Would anyone care to speculate about what India might look like today imagining that it had not been colonized by the…</p>
<p>Spending the day reading through his website; reading reviews of the book; reading comments, etc. I'm starting to get a handle on his perspectives, I think. Does anyone know what India was like prior to western colonialism? Is there any reason to believe that it was different in any significant ways from any other culture through the past few thousand years? Would anyone care to speculate about what India might look like today imagining that it had not been colonized by the British? </p>
<p>There is a certain boots on the ground pragmatism to his heterogeneous observations, but in this point in earth's history with us I think we might equally focus on our homogeneuosness.</p>
<p>Also, how would he sort out the thousands upon thousands of native metaphysical beliefs within that culture and how would he build a society around those ideas? Would it be a theologically driven theocracy? </p> Ok , good to see what his con…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-20:5301756:Comment:600172015-01-20T18:17:54.958Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Ok , good to see what his contentions are. To be clear, i am just a guy with an opinion and have no interest in stepping into the middle of a quarrel . i speak as an individual who believes humanity is entering various stages of integral complexity. The trademarked integral can answer these charges as they see fit. As an 'independent' i shall continue to offer up my opinions as annoying as they might be:)</p>
<p>Ok , good to see what his contentions are. To be clear, i am just a guy with an opinion and have no interest in stepping into the middle of a quarrel . i speak as an individual who believes humanity is entering various stages of integral complexity. The trademarked integral can answer these charges as they see fit. As an 'independent' i shall continue to offer up my opinions as annoying as they might be:)</p> More suggestions for Rajiv:
-…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-01-20:5301756:Comment:599342015-01-20T17:46:52.111Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>More suggestions for Rajiv:</p>
<p>-be mindful of consequences involving framing Hinduism within pre conventional morality juxtaposed to conservative political ideology. We know this leads to various forms of exceptionalism, nationalism, ethnic bigotry, etc, and in their worst projections end up as fascism i.e. the strong ethnocentrism of Germany in the previous mid century. </p>
<p>-realize that a large part of combining neoliberalism and religion is hype i.e. excessive salesmanship! The…</p>
<p>More suggestions for Rajiv:</p>
<p>-be mindful of consequences involving framing Hinduism within pre conventional morality juxtaposed to conservative political ideology. We know this leads to various forms of exceptionalism, nationalism, ethnic bigotry, etc, and in their worst projections end up as fascism i.e. the strong ethnocentrism of Germany in the previous mid century. </p>
<p>-realize that a large part of combining neoliberalism and religion is hype i.e. excessive salesmanship! The coaches and guru's can get caught up in the structure of that system and end up not seeing the forest for the trees. Yes, one is a master at something, say golf ( or religion); within this system one needs to be aware that it's the coaches/teachers function to be hyper-positive while pointing out all the various flaws in someone else's techniques. It's just that within neoliberalism this tendency gets extremely exaggerated and leads to various forms of delusion. Yes, on the micro scale we are competitive; but evolution on the global scale is symbiotic and inter-relational. We mustn't loose sight of that.</p>
<p>-practice religion without religion. </p>