Post-Metaphysical Justice - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T10:55:23Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/post-metaphysical-justice?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A55842&feed=yes&xn_auth=no>Why do you think so many…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-20:5301756:Comment:558472014-04-20T16:18:47.728ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>><span style="font-style: italic;">Why do you think so many people, including myself, view integral theory as being impotent towards social justice? It's well and good to espouse complex theories of why; quite another not be able to remedy much; quite another thing again, to befriend the likes of Obama, Blair, Gore, Kerry, and dismiss ole nasty Bush. I'm not the first one to point out the obvious cultural bias of who is a champion of integral and who isn't. Sorry, i call that integral…</span></p>
<p>><span style="font-style: italic;">Why do you think so many people, including myself, view integral theory as being impotent towards social justice? It's well and good to espouse complex theories of why; quite another not be able to remedy much; quite another thing again, to befriend the likes of Obama, Blair, Gore, Kerry, and dismiss ole nasty Bush. I'm not the first one to point out the obvious cultural bias of who is a champion of integral and who isn't. Sorry, i call that integral stinky!lol Anyway, i'm of the opinion that not much good change is going to come from the top, it's the grassroots pushing up against the excess of the elite pathologies that are going to make any difference. Presupposing that a difference can be made. Of which i am not so sure.</span></p>
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<p>There are several sources for this.</p>
<p>First is one's own excessive expectations. It is a little odd to judge a complex theory for being only a complex theory. "Integral theory" itself is just a set of ideas and not a movement or social powerhouse. So we must be careful in evaluating it. Insofar as "integralites" (meaning people who are generally aware and resonant with this altitude of sensibilities) are required to make real change in the world it is "we" and "you" who are the agents of integral activity and not a hypothetical entity subsumed under the notion of the theory.</p>
<p>Secondly, there are some areas which the theorists have been better at getting an early lead on -- and others which, while acknowledge, grow more slowly and wait for individuals who want to push them forward. Many of those issues are addressed in this forum. Particularly of note are the types of organizational structure which are capable of modifying real life situations. Another missing element, one which I address quite a bit in my Bible of MetaTheory, is the need to conceive of what we are doing in a "big tent" fashion that incorporate very integral, not very integral, superficially integral, depth, beginners, alternative metatheories, etc. in a collective "sense" of shared idea space and emotional spirit. A certain "mass" and "coordinated passion" is needed before this emergent segment of the population really starts to spill over its own boundaries and appear as a strong change agent.</p>
<p>Thirdly, I am not aware of any credible integral thought-leaders who identify the movement or its goals particularly strongly with any Western political "leaders". However we must expect that every integral network will probably have both a great deal in common and a subtle bias towards the language, region and political-ideological zone in which they have emerged. We must not adopt some half-assed "flat" notion that all the major powers in the world are operating in the same way, etc. We must not fail to support the "lesser of two evils" in every situation where there is a more complex and less complex moral perspectives BUT at the same time we need always to hear from integral voices on the inside. Obviously second Tier english-speaking North Americans are going to have a limit on their frame of understanding. Even if they are all strongly depressed and skeptical about forces in their own nation, or parts of their own nation, they still lack the intelligence needed from other regions. For example, our general evaluation of Putin must rely heavily on "second tier Russians". Where are their voices? Where is our information from the most second tier Iranians? </p>
<p>Frankly a general, online Second Tier political exchange is desperately needed. Anyone have the programming skills and time to make one?</p> Some lenny Breau for ya bro!
tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-20:5301756:Comment:558422014-04-20T06:23:46.635Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Some lenny Breau for ya bro!<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/limCRMZD1Ec?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
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<p>Some lenny Breau for ya bro!<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/limCRMZD1Ec?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
</p> I'll take a stab at answering…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-20:5301756:Comment:557622014-04-20T01:55:04.471Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I'll take a stab at answering my own question and at the same time hope i don't derail this important topic. The conflation of western democratic leaders being synonymous with integral is dubious at best. The cozying up of integral to mammon undermines its ability to be clear and concise on issues of justice. Not delineating integral spiritual hypothesis from scientific theory undermines integral credibility; which is not directly related to issues of justice, but it does go to issues of…</p>
<p>I'll take a stab at answering my own question and at the same time hope i don't derail this important topic. The conflation of western democratic leaders being synonymous with integral is dubious at best. The cozying up of integral to mammon undermines its ability to be clear and concise on issues of justice. Not delineating integral spiritual hypothesis from scientific theory undermines integral credibility; which is not directly related to issues of justice, but it does go to issues of honesty. And honesty is related to justice and integrity should be related to integral. Confining a god hypothesis to a upper left quad phenomenon is just plain sneaky, imo. But do what thou will shall be the whole of the law. Other than those issues, integral is all right by me. </p>
<p>More on preventative justice please:)</p> Well, thanks for the deconstr…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-19:5301756:Comment:556582014-04-19T23:47:09.978Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Well, thanks for the deconstruction of my conflation!lol</p>
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<p>Okay, agreed on part one. Agreed on your 4th paragraph, hopefully , anyway. </p>
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<p>Why do you think so many people, including myself, view integral theory as being impotent towards social justice? It's well and good to espouse complex theories of why; quite another not be able to remedy much; quite another thing again, to befriend the likes of Obama, Blair, Gore, Kerry, and dismiss ole nasty Bush. I'm not the…</p>
<p>Well, thanks for the deconstruction of my conflation!lol</p>
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<p>Okay, agreed on part one. Agreed on your 4th paragraph, hopefully , anyway. </p>
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<p>Why do you think so many people, including myself, view integral theory as being impotent towards social justice? It's well and good to espouse complex theories of why; quite another not be able to remedy much; quite another thing again, to befriend the likes of Obama, Blair, Gore, Kerry, and dismiss ole nasty Bush. I'm not the first one to point out the obvious cultural bias of who is a champion of integral and who isn't. Sorry, i call that integral stinky!lol Anyway, i'm of the opinion that not much good change is going to come from the top, it's the grassroots pushing up against the excess of the elite pathologies that are going to make any difference. Presupposing that a difference can be made. Of which i am not so sure.</p>
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<p></p> Hey Andrew,
No developmental…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-19:5301756:Comment:556542014-04-19T22:40:04.421ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Hey Andrew,</p>
<p>No developmental vision can function if it naively imagines that phases of growth simply replace each other. There are always advanced agents and underdeveloped agents relative to the broad norms of any epoch. Even I become an animist when I stub my toe (i.e. "I blame the damnable table corner itself").</p>
<p>If we use the mythology of the Christ-character we certainly, as you point out, get that delirious sense of how readily pre- and trans- are confused by social…</p>
<p>Hey Andrew,</p>
<p>No developmental vision can function if it naively imagines that phases of growth simply replace each other. There are always advanced agents and underdeveloped agents relative to the broad norms of any epoch. Even I become an animist when I stub my toe (i.e. "I blame the damnable table corner itself").</p>
<p>If we use the mythology of the Christ-character we certainly, as you point out, get that delirious sense of how readily pre- and trans- are confused by social forces.</p>
<p>It would probably be misleading to group and conflate fictional characters like Billy Bob's Fargo character, Brad Pitt's Fight Clubber and the lead character from No Country For Old Men. They are, on the one hand, quite distinct and diverse from each other. On the other hand they also represent a classic figure and interest which does not merely represent our concerns about the dubious morality of so-called "neoliberal" populations. I think it is clear that the absence of traditional moral teachings and belief in God have little or no relevance to the apparent widespread ethical retardation of populations. However traditional and God-related moral teachings CAN sometimes be healthy ways to cultivate moral sensibility. Yet in many cases, historically and in the current age, much more decency and empathy is to found among those who actively profess no God and no absolute morality than among those who feel the conviction of a belief anchored in more old fashion childhood training systems. It is a very mixed bag.</p>
<p>The cultivation of moral force, ethical intelligence & interpersonal virtue in people and children is area where we hope to make some real innovations which both incorporate the "wins" of various different traditional approaches and the opportunities afforded by the trends which seeks to escape from many narrow and contaminated versions of traditional moral education.</p>
<p>Billy Bob's Fargo character is quite like classic images of the Devil or the Sorrower-of-Strife in pagan mythologies. He creates violent chaos and conflict wherever he goes and seduces people to imagine that their liberation lies in excessive and destructive gestures rather than in the more delicate movements which actually secure personal happiness and liberation.</p>
<p>"Tyler Durden" from Fight Club represents the pre-integrated Higher Self of the anonymous narrator of that film. There is no strong evidence of immorality or psychopathy in that figure any more than in any other revolution leader. That character in fact is driven by a moral desire to overturn corrupt and violent elements within the social system that current oppresses so many people.</p>
<p>On the other hand, Javier Bardem's assassin from No Country For Old Men is very much the classic cinema psychopath with a slightly sadist streak.</p>
<p>Psychopathy is a wide and fascinating field of study which must be separated from things like 'serial killers', culturopathic anarchists, morally underdeveloped narcissists, etc. It would be fascinating to discuss further in a focused manner. As for atmospheric shenanigans... that probably falls too far afield for this current thread.</p>
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<p></p> Great post LP! I agree that…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-19:5301756:Comment:556512014-04-19T22:11:34.790Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Great post LP! I agree that those three epochs exist bit i would assert that at any given time throughout human history there were those who had developed to post-moral or post-conventional understanding. If you are saying that there has been a general trajectory culturally, then, i would buy into that; but all three groups are still players today and have always been here.</p>
<p>The conventionalist's 2000 odd years ago hung two pre-moral thieves beside a post-conventional rabbi/teacher.…</p>
<p>Great post LP! I agree that those three epochs exist bit i would assert that at any given time throughout human history there were those who had developed to post-moral or post-conventional understanding. If you are saying that there has been a general trajectory culturally, then, i would buy into that; but all three groups are still players today and have always been here.</p>
<p>The conventionalist's 2000 odd years ago hung two pre-moral thieves beside a post-conventional rabbi/teacher. To them , that teacher looked like a thief or behaved to them, no differently than the thieves. So, these interior perceptions have always been with us. I assert that even in those days there were individuals who had what we call egalitarian post-modern values today. </p>
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<p>Where would you place the amoral psychopathy of people like Billy Bob's Fargo character; Brad Pitt's Fight Clubber; No Country for Old Men lead character. I believe these are all allegorical to the neoliberals that have taken over the earth in the 50 years. People who are non-moral ; believe fervently that there is no god, and believe that they can murder anyone at will with no chance of being held accountable for their actions. </p>
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<p>Here is a scenario for you to consider: </p>
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<p><a href="http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org" target="_blank">http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org</a></p>
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<p>Consider the video of the planes spraying aerosol into the atmosphere. First though, we should consider the site itself; is this an NSA psych-ops site? Who made that video? Was this video made by the CIA in partnership with Hollywood filmmakers ? Is the video real? What if they really are spraying aerosols into the atmosphere? What chemical is it? Should Exxon/Chevron unilaterally be allowed to spray sulphuric acid aerosol into the atmosphere so that the planet cools enough so they can continue on their merry carbon ways. Should individual oligarchs be allowed to spray this themselves? Should any state be allowed to take it upon themselves to geo-engineer the atmosphere. Who polices this behaviour? i believe we now have the technology to do this, so these are all legitimate queries , imo.</p>
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<p>I'll touch on how few of the worlds neoliberal elite end up in those prisons later.</p>
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