Opening Space for Translineage Practice - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T11:20:43Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/opening-space-for-translineage-practice?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A42889&feed=yes&xn_auth=no"with this forum as the book…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:437192012-09-29T21:12:32.205ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>"with this forum as the book or product."</p>
<p>If we accept Bryant's reading of Luhmann, the forum is a suobject with its own suobstance. So at times I am responding to <em>it</em>.*</p>
<p>Thanks for the link e. If you would, please tell us in your own words what position Murti is defending and with which Kennilingam agrees?</p>
<p>* Given the foregoing, and since the forum has a name, IPS, perhaps we might say it has…</p>
<p>"with this forum as the book or product."</p>
<p>If we accept Bryant's reading of Luhmann, the forum is a suobject with its own suobstance. So at times I am responding to <em>it</em>.*</p>
<p>Thanks for the link e. If you would, please tell us in your own words what position Murti is defending and with which Kennilingam agrees?</p>
<p>* Given the foregoing, and since the forum has a name, IPS, perhaps we might say it has <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ipseity?s=t" target="_blank">ipseity</a>. Perhaps I might affectionately call it IPSie.</p> Hey guys,
Just happened to be…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:438252012-09-29T20:07:46.144Zehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/e
<p>Hey guys,</p>
<p>Just happened to be reading this on Murti from Kalupahana. (See P 80 but the criticism starts a few pages before.)</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/22997836/2/III-Clarification-of-Terminology">http://www.scribd.com/doc/22997836/2/III-Clarification-of-Terminology</a></p>
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<p>I had a phone conversation back on Gaia with Annie. We hit upon Genpo and Ken (she was kinda in the inner sanctum :). She said Ken would have surely read the Pali Nikayas. I told…</p>
<p>Hey guys,</p>
<p>Just happened to be reading this on Murti from Kalupahana. (See P 80 but the criticism starts a few pages before.)</p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/22997836/2/III-Clarification-of-Terminology">http://www.scribd.com/doc/22997836/2/III-Clarification-of-Terminology</a></p>
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<p>I had a phone conversation back on Gaia with Annie. We hit upon Genpo and Ken (she was kinda in the inner sanctum :). She said Ken would have surely read the Pali Nikayas. I told her if he did, it seemed he did not read them very closely, etc. as Ken has a footnote in SES maintaining the same position that Kalupahana is criticizing. Sabbe dhamma anatta is a pretty famous utterance in Theravada circles. </p>
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<p>Hope everyone is doing well!!</p>
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<p>e</p> Okay, I thought so! I had a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:436212012-09-29T16:00:49.367ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Okay, I thought so! I had a kind of shift in my mind this morning, in terms of how I see our interactions here: I sometimes get disoriented, since there are only a few of us talking here and one would expect that in a discussion forum we'd be talking to each other, but at times it really is more like we're all working on a collaborative project, (freely) self-publishing in parallel, with this forum as the "book" or "product."</p>
<p>Okay, I thought so! I had a kind of shift in my mind this morning, in terms of how I see our interactions here: I sometimes get disoriented, since there are only a few of us talking here and one would expect that in a discussion forum we'd be talking to each other, but at times it really is more like we're all working on a collaborative project, (freely) self-publishing in parallel, with this forum as the "book" or "product."</p> Yes, I'm delusional in that I…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:438232012-09-29T15:56:11.322ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Yes, I'm delusional in that I think others read us and am more providing links and general references for them, as I know you are familiar with my points made ad nauseum in the forum. And I know you didn't mean a final end state, but I also know many kennlinguists mean exactly that so my criticism is directed at them. And again to inform other readers, unless of course they are just in my imagination, in which case they are Monster Xs without substance. And I'm not just delusional but worse…</p>
<p>Yes, I'm delusional in that I think others read us and am more providing links and general references for them, as I know you are familiar with my points made ad nauseum in the forum. And I know you didn't mean a final end state, but I also know many kennlinguists mean exactly that so my criticism is directed at them. And again to inform other readers, unless of course they are just in my imagination, in which case they are Monster Xs without substance. And I'm not just delusional but worse off than I thought.</p> I'm guessing, when you say, "…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:437182012-09-29T14:57:42.050ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>I'm guessing, when you say, "see kela's blog post on inclusivism," you are making this statement to general readers, for educational purposes, rather than conversing directly with me? Because I know you know I have already read that blog and was already writing about this very topic (and its relation to Integral positions) before kela posted it...</p>
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<p>Regarding your earlier post, yes, good point; I think my use of the word "finally," which I was using to give an emphatic tone…</p>
<p>I'm guessing, when you say, "see kela's blog post on inclusivism," you are making this statement to general readers, for educational purposes, rather than conversing directly with me? Because I know you know I have already read that blog and was already writing about this very topic (and its relation to Integral positions) before kela posted it...</p>
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<p>Regarding your earlier post, yes, good point; I think my use of the word "finally," which I was using to give an emphatic tone (like "at last"), is misleading, to the degree it might suggest the arrival at such a final end point or stage of development, or even that what the hermeneutically recovered "primordial" becomes (yes, with the help of certain ego functions) is what it then will forever and finally "be" (in full present transparency)... I do not mean that.</p> Also see kela's blog post on…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:437162012-09-29T11:37:17.243ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Also see <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a-brief-note-on-inclusivism" target="_self">kela's blog post</a> on inclusivism, which after providing numerous examples ends thusly:</p>
<p>"In the end it is about the dominance of some particular tradition -- whether it be Advaita Vedanta, Tantra, or whatever -- and the subordination of all other traditions to that tradition."</p>
<p>Or a more broad orienting generalization might be, metaphysics is largely about…</p>
<p>Also see <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a-brief-note-on-inclusivism" target="_self">kela's blog post</a> on inclusivism, which after providing numerous examples ends thusly:</p>
<p>"In the end it is about the dominance of some particular tradition -- whether it be Advaita Vedanta, Tantra, or whatever -- and the subordination of all other traditions to that tradition."</p>
<p>Or a more broad orienting generalization might be, metaphysics is largely about hegemony.</p> "...even though it never was…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:438222012-09-29T02:09:09.128ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>"...even though it never <em>was</em> (for the infant) what it finally <em>becomes</em> in spiritual, post-egoic realization."</p>
<p>Recall in our discussions of this that the ego was a necessary ingredient to not only to get us 'back' there but integrate it. And just as the past is integrated so is the future becoming, but a future that never <em>arrives</em> as an end state. It seems there is this need to arrive at the end of history with a final enlightenment or final stage of…</p>
<p>"...even though it never <em>was</em> (for the infant) what it finally <em>becomes</em> in spiritual, post-egoic realization."</p>
<p>Recall in our discussions of this that the ego was a necessary ingredient to not only to get us 'back' there but integrate it. And just as the past is integrated so is the future becoming, but a future that never <em>arrives</em> as an end state. It seems there is this need to arrive at the end of history with a final enlightenment or final stage of development. Even though the kennilinguists say that the relative continues to evolve they still maintain an absolute that has always been and forever will be in the <em>present</em>, direct experience of the ultimate. And therein lies the rub as to what constitutes a <em>post</em>-egoic realization, and what is <em>post</em>metaphysical, since that kind of dichotomous (dual nondual) interpretation of such experience is part and parcel of the metaphysics of presence.</p> Balder: I see in this view a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-29:5301756:Comment:439202012-09-29T01:08:31.199ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p><em><strong><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;">Balder:</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;"> </span></strong> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;">I see in this view a similarity to -- perhaps a homeomorphic equivalent to -- a view we have explored at some length on my forum: the notion of a hermeneutic return to the primordial, which…</span></em></p>
<p><em><strong><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;">Balder:</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;"> </span></strong> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.3833px; background-color: #fafafa;">I see in this view a similarity to -- perhaps a homeomorphic equivalent to -- a view we have explored at some length on my forum: the notion of a hermeneutic return to the primordial, which is at once a recovery and a redemption or amplification of the primordial. A number of religious and contemplative-philosophical traditions provide technologies for this process of hermeneutic recovery, which redeems the "echo" of the primordial in us as the</span><em style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;"> always already</em><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;">, although what is thus realized -- in this higher-order hermeneutic-phenomenological transformation -- never really </span><em style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;">was</em><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;"> (for us) what it now</span><em style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;"> is </em><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;">(for us). It is, in this sense, a "surplus" or an "amplification" (and thus a redemption) of our primordial heritage.</span></em></p>
<p><em><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: 14.383333206176758px; background-color: #fafafa;"> </span></em></p>
<p><strong>Layman Pascal:</strong> Just so. The classical mentality which seeks to return to the Origin suffers from all-too-typical inability to affirm the present or to follow the instinct of Life in its deeply futuristic quality. So it seeks an insensible return, an archaic revival or redemptive rebellious which imagines the primordial is a simple external fact present in past-time. But in this foolishness is a profound suggestion that can be redeemed by an understand of the present time and future-generative enactment which occurs the the apparently phenomenological moment of discovering the original condition. This discovery is already an amplification. The redemption of the primordial heritage lies beyond the understanding that the "echo" was a creative act that does not require return but rather requires responsible production of that which makes the semblance of return possible in the first place. And these strategies, carried on across domains, is my definition of religious activity. </p> One more post from the Integr…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-28:5301756:Comment:439192012-09-28T23:59:22.936ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>One more post from the Integral Life discussion:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Balder:</strong> <em>If I follow your suggestion here, you are saying that the process of increasing generalization might lead, eventually, towards a convergence of soteriological ends? That, while there may be an increase in divergence, on the one hand, in the many different ways our views complexify and find expression (the outer/expressive forms of our traditions), they might also be converging through the…</em></p>
<p>One more post from the Integral Life discussion:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Balder:</strong> <em>If I follow your suggestion here, you are saying that the process of increasing generalization might lead, eventually, towards a convergence of soteriological ends? That, while there may be an increase in divergence, on the one hand, in the many different ways our views complexify and find expression (the outer/expressive forms of our traditions), they might also be converging through the winnowing process of generalization? If so, this points to a future-possible "sameness" or "maximal adjancency" of soteriological ends among traditions, but would also imply present-level differences in traditions' conceptions of such an end, such that what is enacted now by the different traditions would exhibit a diversity of realizations, which might yet converge via the formation of a global wisdom civilization. Is this what you are saying?</em></p>
<p><br/><strong>Layman Pascal:</strong> <em>Quite right. Every politician is more conventional after a term in office. The constant exposure to contingencies is essentially the mechanism by which every "mainstream" is produced. So we have to take seriously the possibility of a convergent sameness (maximal adjacency, yes) which is the unspoken horizon of many distinct soteriological "policies". However at the same time we must not neglect the fact that even small variations, when reiterated, produce fabulously unique patterns. Proceding with both these realities on the table is the only way to do conceptual justice to the simultaneous disclosure/enclosure tendencies which we find operating at borders (and therefore which we attribute to the ontological nature of the border-substance which is all-pervasive).</em></p>
<p><br/><strong>Ambo:</strong> <em>Seemingly inexorable appetite for some novelty and distinction will probably also be part of feeling the need for divergence from mainstream, eh, Layman and Bruce. Depending on the extent to which I am understanding much of what you are discussing, I just want to add and to cement this possibility, in the conversation, of our deep constitutional inheritance, I'll remind of the recent talk about Integral Cities where the biological imperative for diversity, pointed to in bees as an example, seems to be tenaciously etched into our survival 'DNA'/patterns. So as has been suggested, yes, dynamics, broadly kosmic perhaps and particularly biological, seem to encourage convergence and divergence. I like that since we know so little about the interweavings of dynamic patterns that evolutionarily and involutionarily impact our unfolding, we include that they these two tendencies to converge and diverge are tentatively considered to be occurring simultaneously as well as in some forms of alternation, along differ scales or levels of consideration.</em></p>
<p><br/>Yes -- I haven't listened to the recent Integral Cities posting, but I am familiar with Hamilton's writings and mentioned her work earlier in this conversation when I talked about the role of "diversity generators" within systems (including religious and spiritual systems). The panarchy cycle, which Hamilton appeals to, provides a useful account of these twin movements of convergence and divergence.</p>
<p><br/>From my side, while I do not rule out the possibility of a future convergence of our present forms of realization, especially as we move into greater translineage contexts, I do not see a need to look forward to that as a necessary end, nor do I expect -- in an evolutionary context -- even a temporary planetary convergence of soteriological ends to "stay put": I think people would eventually put forth new exploratory tendrils and this would likely result in new, wildly creative flowerings. To expect or need there to be just one final religious fulfillment or culture of realization is as odd, to me, as expecting life to settle, finally, on just one species.</p>
<p><br/>On the other hand, relating this to what I said above about hermeneutic recovery of the primordial, I do think that -- given our nature as embodied, Kosmic, evolutionary beings of the same species -- there is in us a universal "echo" of our primordial condition, a primordial state of fullness and wholeness, that calls to us, and that serves as a pregnant horizon of fulfillment(s), even though it never <em>was</em> (for the infant) what it finally <em>becomes</em> in spiritual, post-egoic realization (which, in its hermeneutic recovery, is both convergent and divergent).</p> And this post, where Batchelo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2012-09-28:5301756:Comment:439182012-09-28T23:19:08.209ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>And <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A40568" target="_self">this post</a>, where Batchelor specifically names the Lingam, though spells his name incorrectly. After linking Wallace to a reifying view he says:</p>
<p>"This kind of view is becoming normative of much 'Eastern spirituality' in the West, particularly under the influence of the neo-Vedantist Ken Wilbur."</p>
<p>And <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A40568" target="_self">this post</a>, where Batchelor specifically names the Lingam, though spells his name incorrectly. After linking Wallace to a reifying view he says:</p>
<p>"This kind of view is becoming normative of much 'Eastern spirituality' in the West, particularly under the influence of the neo-Vedantist Ken Wilbur."</p>