ITC 2015 - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T15:47:27Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/itc-2015?feed=yes&xn_auth=noHey Balder , please consider…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-25:5301756:Comment:631212015-11-25T04:21:00.811Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Hey Balder , please consider an apology from me, I get that I can be a real pain . I wouldn't hang around this neck of the woods as long as I have if I didn't have a deep respect for the thought that goes on here . </p>
<p>Hey, if I were an academic , i would have written pretty well what Andre did . I've been saying a lot of the same things ; notwithstanding some of my own idiosyncratic views on the whole bloody mess . </p>
<p>One point on the pontification thing though: it was directed at…</p>
<p>Hey Balder , please consider an apology from me, I get that I can be a real pain . I wouldn't hang around this neck of the woods as long as I have if I didn't have a deep respect for the thought that goes on here . </p>
<p>Hey, if I were an academic , i would have written pretty well what Andre did . I've been saying a lot of the same things ; notwithstanding some of my own idiosyncratic views on the whole bloody mess . </p>
<p>One point on the pontification thing though: it was directed at I.T. not becoming like the Catholic Church asserting definitively the nature of reality ; but rather , as a mediating influence or avenue for the worlds religious believers . i believe this is similar to what Sean is saying.</p>
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<p></p> Thanks Balder, I didn't see y…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:628792015-11-24T21:40:08.166ZDavidM58http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DavidM58
<p>Thanks Balder, I didn't see your post before posting mine. it's like you started answering my question before I was able to hit the "Add Reply" button. </p>
<p>Thanks Balder, I didn't see your post before posting mine. it's like you started answering my question before I was able to hit the "Add Reply" button. </p> Hi, David, did you see my pos…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:631192015-11-24T19:43:52.046ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Hi, David, did you see my post immediately above (posted about two minutes before yours)? I commented there as well that I thought Terry had the strongest argument (and had a similar reaction to yours regarding the difficulty of hiding the Wilber/Integral legacy from those who want to look).</p>
<p>Hi, David, did you see my post immediately above (posted about two minutes before yours)? I commented there as well that I thought Terry had the strongest argument (and had a similar reaction to yours regarding the difficulty of hiding the Wilber/Integral legacy from those who want to look).</p> Balder,
As an academic, what…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:628782015-11-24T19:23:18.267ZDavidM58http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DavidM58
<p>Balder, </p>
<p>As an academic, what do you make of Sean and Mark's arguments? I haven't reviewed the video, but attended the first half of this debate live, and then later listened to the audio. I believe it was Terry Patten's arguments that resonated most strongly with me. </p>
<p>The spirituality cat is already out of the bag, and would be very difficult to stuff back in, and no one is going to be able to control the content, controversies, the inane and inartful postings as well as the…</p>
<p>Balder, </p>
<p>As an academic, what do you make of Sean and Mark's arguments? I haven't reviewed the video, but attended the first half of this debate live, and then later listened to the audio. I believe it was Terry Patten's arguments that resonated most strongly with me. </p>
<p>The spirituality cat is already out of the bag, and would be very difficult to stuff back in, and no one is going to be able to control the content, controversies, the inane and inartful postings as well as the important criticisms of all things "integral" and "Ken Wilber" on the internets. </p>
<p>David</p> We have a similar thread goin…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:628772015-11-24T19:20:44.271ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>We have a similar thread going on the FB IPS forum in relation to the panel discussion and Andre Marquis' <a href="https://gallery.mailchimp.com/1096152e57978838e12c47ebf/files/Marquis_Integral_Culture.pdf?utm_source=Mi+Enact%3A+MetaIntegral+news+and+announcements&utm_campaign=9e2d77ffc1-ITC+2015+-+Recordings%2C+Video%2C+and+Article!&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9b27ba829a-9e2d77ffc1-21712829" target="_blank">written response</a> to it. Here is what I posted there: <br></br><br></br>I…</p>
<p>We have a similar thread going on the FB IPS forum in relation to the panel discussion and Andre Marquis' <a href="https://gallery.mailchimp.com/1096152e57978838e12c47ebf/files/Marquis_Integral_Culture.pdf?utm_source=Mi+Enact%3A+MetaIntegral+news+and+announcements&utm_campaign=9e2d77ffc1-ITC+2015+-+Recordings%2C+Video%2C+and+Article!&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9b27ba829a-9e2d77ffc1-21712829" target="_blank">written response</a> to it. Here is what I posted there: <br/><br/>I haven't listened to the Q&A yet, but I think Terry Patten scored the most rhetorical points in the debate portion. I agree with him that the question almost seemed to have been set up to be un-winnable (though I expect they were just going for a partial and polarized position, to generate more heat). "Abandoning spirituality" is too stark of an option, though backgrounding some of IT's more strongly mystical and esoteric commitments certainly seems necessary for it to make significant inroads (or just to be given a hearing) in leading intellectual, educational, and policy institutions. But given the history of IT, and its primary focuses over most of its existence, this seems unrealistic: it doesn't seem reasonable or possible to "hide" the more controversial aspects of Wilber's legacy (including his responses to critics, his endorsements of controversial spiritual teachers, etc). For the kind of "mission" Sean and Mark appear to be envisioning, a trojan horse approach seems preferable: a new academic model that hides its sourcing in IT and drops references to Wilber.<br/><br/>But there *are* "mainstream" areas where IT can make more direct contributions, and I agree with Sean that Religious Studies is one of them. But the path there, too, is an uphill one, as currently IT isn't given much if any credibility in those circles. Outside of academia, IT practitioners and scholars should make more effort -- as Sean also suggests -- to form dialogical and collaborative relationships with existing and emerging religious traditions (or modalities), and/or to form viable spiritual practice traditions and communities themselves. Currently, IT inhabits mostly either 3-p/"about" or incorporative, 1-p/"as" relationships to other religious paths; strong, constructive 2-p relations have yet to be forged. And such a move would likely give it more public visibility than it currently enjoys.<br/><br/>About Marquis' response to the panel discussion, I basically agree that IT often over-steps its ostensible postmetaphysical orientation to make (spiritually inspiring but scientifically untenable) pronouncements about external reality based on 1-p spiritual experiences. This is probably not a problem on the "popular" level but it is a problem in certain circles where IT practitioners also hope to have an impact.<br/><br/></p> Yes, B, I attended that panel…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:630162015-11-24T19:02:59.023ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>Yes, B, I attended that panel. The mandatory debate format made the 'conversation' quite amusing at times. they all did good jobs in a challenging situation to make valid points and arguments and to keep straight faces.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Balder said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/itc-2015?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A62874&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment62874"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Meta-Integral has published a video…</p>
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<p>Yes, B, I attended that panel. The mandatory debate format made the 'conversation' quite amusing at times. they all did good jobs in a challenging situation to make valid points and arguments and to keep straight faces.<br/> <br/> <cite>Balder said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/itc-2015?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A62874&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment62874"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Meta-Integral has published a video from one of the debate panels from ITC 2015: <a href="https://vimeo.com/136961970" target="_blank">Does Integral Culture Have to Abandon Its Spirituality to Have a Ma...</a></p>
<p>Panelists: Sean Esbjorn-Hargens, Mark Fabionar, Dustin DiPerna, and Terry Patten.</p>
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</blockquote> You don't need to lecture me…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:628762015-11-24T17:17:05.351ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>You don't need to lecture me on the neo-liberal (or neo-conservative!) influence on education. I'm an adjunct faculty member and have little benefits or compensation in the current exploitative model. But the situation on the ground, of work being done in real classrooms (despite these impositions), is a lot more complex, varied, and often valuable, than your outsider-critic's view apparently allows for. It's easy for outsiders and anti-academics to call the work done in classrooms "empty…</p>
<p>You don't need to lecture me on the neo-liberal (or neo-conservative!) influence on education. I'm an adjunct faculty member and have little benefits or compensation in the current exploitative model. But the situation on the ground, of work being done in real classrooms (despite these impositions), is a lot more complex, varied, and often valuable, than your outsider-critic's view apparently allows for. It's easy for outsiders and anti-academics to call the work done in classrooms "empty pontification" -- but that's not my reality, nor the reality of most of my colleagues, in my school or others. I hear from grateful students every year -- even every quarter -- about their life-changing learning and growth experiences. Education needs serious reform, yes. But even now, education in these institutions is going on, and it is no waste of time, in my view, to make whatever positive impacts in these present contexts that we can, even while critiquing the system (which we do) and working on alternatives. So, this all-or-nothing question about integral modeling itself after neo-liberal capitalists (just because it is seeking an inroad into current academia) doesn't fly with me: no such proposal was being made in the debate.</p> Here is one of thousands of l…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:631182015-11-24T16:50:23.092Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Here is one of thousands of links that i could post that reflect the truth in education today : </p>
<p><a href="http://www.academicmatters.ca/2014/10/neoliberalism-and-postsecondary-education-a-view-from-the-colleges/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.academicmatters.ca/2014/10/neoliberalism-and-postseconda...</a></p>
<p>Okay, i'm more annoying than Henry Giroux, i get that , but the fact of the matter is that this neoliberal model of education is a regression when juxtaposed to…</p>
<p>Here is one of thousands of links that i could post that reflect the truth in education today : </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.academicmatters.ca/2014/10/neoliberalism-and-postsecondary-education-a-view-from-the-colleges/" target="_blank">http://www.academicmatters.ca/2014/10/neoliberalism-and-postseconda...</a></p>
<p>Okay, i'm more annoying than Henry Giroux, i get that , but the fact of the matter is that this neoliberal model of education is a regression when juxtaposed to the general flow of human development . A development that desires more inclusion and not less . A dialogic of equalitarian bro/sisterhood within the earths spiritual community is perferable to more pontification . We've had quite enough of that and the fact of the matter is that as we spiral downwards said pontifications preferred method of delivery will be the barrel of a gun .</p>
<p>If our societies developed in a healthy manner, education, health care and a basic Tiny House would be fundamental base conditions for all people . I'll continue to suggest that a two currency system would solve these problems but from what I can tell it is possible under this currency model, but quite unlikely .</p>
<p>The joy at the core of reality is, IMO, spoken in mythological terms : no respecter of persons, or a joy that has respect for all life A highly developed culture would reflect this truism .</p> Integral has the potential to…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:631142015-11-24T03:59:09.704Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Integral has the potential to become the worlds religious mediator but only if it considers it self one among many in a multiplicity . No more of the we are so exceptional B.S. . Integral can't look like another form of only we have dibs on reality religion. What Integral would be good at is filling in the knowledge base of traditional religions . Lines of development and all that juicy stuff but never in a way that elevates Integral above anyone else . IOW's Integral won't work , IMO,…</p>
<p>Integral has the potential to become the worlds religious mediator but only if it considers it self one among many in a multiplicity . No more of the we are so exceptional B.S. . Integral can't look like another form of only we have dibs on reality religion. What Integral would be good at is filling in the knowledge base of traditional religions . Lines of development and all that juicy stuff but never in a way that elevates Integral above anyone else . IOW's Integral won't work , IMO, unless it can remain impartial.</p>
<div class="mod"><div class="_oDd"><span class="_Tgc"><b>Impartiality</b> (also called evenhandedness or fair-mindedness) is a principle of justice holding that decisions should be based on objective criteria, rather than on the basis of bias, prejudice, or preferring the benefit to one person over another for improper reasons.)</span></div>
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<div class="_oDd"><span class="_Tgc">Not all religions will except every tenet of I.T. but they may consider I.T. if the aforementioned were implemented . </span></div>
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<div class="_oDd"><span class="_Tgc">On whether I.T. should whore itself out to the global neoliberal capitalists? Really? Do we even need to ask that question? Look, academia sold it's soul to the money powers long ago and turned learning into debt bondage . That and turning univercities into research departments for pathological corporate interests and making a mockery out of the notion of the commons. Integrity and serving that which is most central to human health is antithetical to todays academic structure. Am i allowed to say fuck those academic pimps? Oh, no, sorry:( Me bad .</span></div>
<div class="_oDd"><span class="_Tgc">Yeah, but go Kenny! In a new and improved integral embrace . </span></div>
<div class="_oDd"><span class="_Tgc">Okay, maybe I'm a little hard on academia. They probably aren't that bad ; just arrested at deficient rational.</span></div>
</div> Meta-Integral has published a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-11-24:5301756:Comment:628742015-11-24T01:04:02.609ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Meta-Integral has published a video from one of the debate panels from ITC 2015: <a href="https://vimeo.com/136961970" target="_blank">Does Integral Culture Have to Abandon Its Spirituality to Have a Mainstream Impact?</a></p>
<p>Panelists: Sean Esbjorn-Hargens, Mark Fabionar, Dustin DiPerna, and Terry Patten.</p>
<p>Meta-Integral has published a video from one of the debate panels from ITC 2015: <a href="https://vimeo.com/136961970" target="_blank">Does Integral Culture Have to Abandon Its Spirituality to Have a Mainstream Impact?</a></p>
<p>Panelists: Sean Esbjorn-Hargens, Mark Fabionar, Dustin DiPerna, and Terry Patten.</p>