Is Religion A Force for Good in the World? Hitchens vs Blair - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T06:59:24Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/is-religion-a-force-for-good?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A4845&feed=yes&xn_auth=nothis question neither grabs m…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-05-16:5301756:Comment:156692011-05-16T03:35:09.522Zkelamunihttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/kelamuni
this question neither grabs me nor doesn't.
this question neither grabs me nor doesn't. Hokai, a poster on the old Ga…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-05-16:5301756:Comment:164012011-05-16T01:56:00.451ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Hokai, a poster on the old Gaia website, posted this article on Facebook. I don't think cases like this show that religion isn't, or can't be, a "force for good in the world," but it is certainly a call -- here, to the Catholic Church -- to do better.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0223/1224290630240.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dd05b51452d5ba5%2C0" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Charges initiated against Pope for crimes…</span></a></p>
<p>Hokai, a poster on the old Gaia website, posted this article on Facebook. I don't think cases like this show that religion isn't, or can't be, a "force for good in the world," but it is certainly a call -- here, to the Catholic Church -- to do better.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0223/1224290630240.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dd05b51452d5ba5%2C0" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Charges initiated against Pope for crimes against humanity</span></a>.</p> I think it is. Religion as in…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-02-24:5301756:Comment:74232011-02-24T06:08:39.011Z125ohqq5ixuhphttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/xn/detail/u_125ohqq5ixuhp
I think it is. Religion as interpreted properly influences a lot of what man does. However, religion that suggests violence and other forms may well be the fuel for catastrophe.
I think it is. Religion as interpreted properly influences a lot of what man does. However, religion that suggests violence and other forms may well be the fuel for catastrophe. It is quite easy to trash the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-02-22:5301756:Comment:72212011-02-22T05:51:29.771Zxibalbahttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/xibalba
<p>It is quite easy to trash the mythic religious mind as KW would say, no big deal. As a teen I could already laugh at people adoring that pathetic piece of wood and a bleeding dude on it, the equally ridiculous stone throwing on the Devil´s rock in Mecca or bathing in the Ganges, the naive representation of Krishna of the street religions of India, etc.</p>
<p>so I would not put the "bright" gang as Dennett calls himself on a pedestal , neither applaud them for that fantastic…</p>
<p>It is quite easy to trash the mythic religious mind as KW would say, no big deal. As a teen I could already laugh at people adoring that pathetic piece of wood and a bleeding dude on it, the equally ridiculous stone throwing on the Devil´s rock in Mecca or bathing in the Ganges, the naive representation of Krishna of the street religions of India, etc.</p>
<p>so I would not put the "bright" gang as Dennett calls himself on a pedestal , neither applaud them for that fantastic endeavour.</p>
<p>More difficut is a serious transcendance of an equally serious existential tendency toward cynicism, nihilism and despair (dark nights) when "God is dead", and when the great banquet of deconsruction has ended. When we dare look at our void, nakedness, suffering a such.</p>
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<p>And that Hitchens and his self-elected mediatic big mouth is hardly the person to ask anything about that. He is just</p>
<p>playing that old form of dandyism already used by Wilde, Baudelaire, or Rimbaud, But honestly, he hasn´t the look for it. LOL</p>
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<p> </p> That looks like a wonderful f…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-02-21:5301756:Comment:74102011-02-21T21:06:29.604ZMary W.http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/MaryW
That looks like a wonderful forum, Bruce! Looking forward to listening to Harris podcast later. Thank you.<br></br>
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<cite>Balder said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/is-religion-a-force-for-good?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A4818&page=4#5301756Comment6933"><div>Hey, Mary, I discovered a discussion of Harris' <em>The Moral Landscape</em> that is along the lines you mention: a (friendly) "panel-like discussion across 'religious/Godless' boundaries":…</div>
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That looks like a wonderful forum, Bruce! Looking forward to listening to Harris podcast later. Thank you.<br/>
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<cite>Balder said:</cite><br />
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/is-religion-a-force-for-good?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A4818&page=4#5301756Comment6933"><div>Hey, Mary, I discovered a discussion of Harris' <em>The Moral Landscape</em> that is along the lines you mention: a (friendly) "panel-like discussion across 'religious/Godless' boundaries": <a href="http://www.apologia-podcast.net/" target="_blank">Apologia discussion of TML</a>.</div>
</blockquote> Hey, Mary, I discovered a dis…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-02-20:5301756:Comment:69332011-02-20T20:13:28.724ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
Hey, Mary, I discovered a discussion of Harris' <em>The Moral Landscape</em> that is along the lines you mention: a (friendly) "panel-like discussion across 'religious/Godless' boundaries": <a href="http://www.apologia-podcast.net/" target="_blank">Apologia discussion of TML</a>.
Hey, Mary, I discovered a discussion of Harris' <em>The Moral Landscape</em> that is along the lines you mention: a (friendly) "panel-like discussion across 'religious/Godless' boundaries": <a href="http://www.apologia-podcast.net/" target="_blank">Apologia discussion of TML</a>. I would love to see more pane…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-01-14:5301756:Comment:53942011-01-14T15:54:54.000ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p><em><strong>I would love to see more panel-like discussions across "religious/Godless" boundaries -- discussions that could include rigorous debate but also recognitions of overlapping areas in thinking. A spectrum of opinion rather than polarized opposition. And ... more eating. More dancing.</strong></em></p>
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<p>Amen! </p>
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<p>And I hear you with regard to the frustration. I think Hitchens and Harris and others are often criticizing aspects of religion that do deserve to…</p>
<p><em><strong>I would love to see more panel-like discussions across "religious/Godless" boundaries -- discussions that could include rigorous debate but also recognitions of overlapping areas in thinking. A spectrum of opinion rather than polarized opposition. And ... more eating. More dancing.</strong></em></p>
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<p>Amen! </p>
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<p>And I hear you with regard to the frustration. I think Hitchens and Harris and others are often criticizing aspects of religion that do deserve to be criticized, and probably a heavy, blunt-force instrument is necessary for that, given the "weight" and power (and degree of defense around) some of those aspects; but I feel frustrated too by the apparent disregard for, or lack of awareness of, the vast range of perspectives (and still very relevant, even leading edge, possibilities) that have grown right within the institution(s) they are attempting to demolish. </p> Balder noted: "the easy victo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-01-13:5301756:Comment:53882011-01-13T02:54:14.000ZMary W.http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/MaryW
<p>Balder noted: "the easy victory of the atheists may have been due in part to the sorts of people selected to represent the pro-God or pro-Church positions."</p>
<p>Generally I find these debates [the polarized, point-counterpoint ones] frustrating. Invariably the people chosen to represent pro-church opinions are conservative, narrowminded, or uninformed. (When I read who was representing the Catholic church in the above debates, I lost interest in listening, knowing that the spectrum of…</p>
<p>Balder noted: "the easy victory of the atheists may have been due in part to the sorts of people selected to represent the pro-God or pro-Church positions."</p>
<p>Generally I find these debates [the polarized, point-counterpoint ones] frustrating. Invariably the people chosen to represent pro-church opinions are conservative, narrowminded, or uninformed. (When I read who was representing the Catholic church in the above debates, I lost interest in listening, knowing that the spectrum of Catholic opinion would not be presented).</p>
<p>Beyond Panikkar, there are scads of (still-living) folks who would be better voices for religion: Episcopal Bishop <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong" target="_blank">John Shelby Spong</a>, Rabbi <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/teachers/teachers.php?id=116" target="_blank">Rami Shapiro</a>, Jesuit columnist <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Martin_%28Jesuit%29" target="_blank">James Martin</a>, Benedictine nun <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Chittister" target="_blank">Joan Chittister</a>, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Simon" target="_blank">Arthur Simon</a>, founder of Bread for the World . . . Of course, my own bias is showing, here. :)</p>
<p>And -- though debate certainly has its place in our world -- it seems that all too often it keeps people entrenched and self-satisfied in their opinions, rather than opened up to what might valuable in the "opponent's" view. And I wonder what might happen if we diverted some of the energy exerted in apologetics and defending cherished views to working on issues of common concern, irrespective of belief. I think of the atheist whose funeral was held at my church a couple of months ago. He was married to a practicing Catholic, a woman on our church's pastoral council. Never hiding the fact that he was an atheist, he attended church most Sundays, in part to support his wife, but also because he enjoyed the intelligent, broad-minded homilies of our parish priest and because he appreciated the church's social justice advocacy . . .</p>
<p>I would love to see more panel-like discussions across "religious/Godless" boundaries -- discussions that could include rigorous debate but also recognitions of overlapping areas in thinking. A spectrum of opinion rather than polarized opposition. And ... more eating. More dancing.</p> Theurj: "Besides, what I find…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-01-12:5301756:Comment:53862011-01-12T21:55:17.000ZDawid Dahlhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DawidDahl
<p>Theurj: <em>"<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">Besides, what I find most interesting about integral these days no longer comes from him but can be found right here, Integral Review, Integral World, Integral Leadership Review, Institute for Integral Studies, etc."</span></em></p>
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<p><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">Yeah.</span></p>
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<p><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">In all fairness though Ken does say that Integral is not…</span></p>
<p>Theurj: <em>"<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">Besides, what I find most interesting about integral these days no longer comes from him but can be found right here, Integral Review, Integral World, Integral Leadership Review, Institute for Integral Studies, etc."</span></em></p>
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<p><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">Yeah.</span></p>
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<p><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 19px;">In all fairness though Ken does say that Integral is not confined to his writings, but is its own stage of consciousness. And stages of consciousness of course aren't themselves <em>content</em> (the AQAL-framework being an example of content) but interpreters-<em>of-</em>content. He says that you, if you want, can choose to be a <em>Wilberian</em> and follow his particular integral content, but in no way does choosing not to hinder you from manifesting integral cognition. At least I think I remember him saying something much along these lines in the Sounds True interviews.</span></p> I think part of the problem i…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2011-01-11:5301756:Comment:53852011-01-11T23:29:25.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I think part of the problem is that for Wilber's first 20+ years of publishing with Shambhala not even his editors dared change even one word, since he was their cash cow. So it seems he never even went through the usual editorial battle with publishers. I know when I got the initial, pre-pub draft of Integral Spirituality I later discovered it was published verbatim. I also know from personal experience that many of the early folks involved with I-I were excommunicated for even the…</p>
<p>I think part of the problem is that for Wilber's first 20+ years of publishing with Shambhala not even his editors dared change even one word, since he was their cash cow. So it seems he never even went through the usual editorial battle with publishers. I know when I got the initial, pre-pub draft of Integral Spirituality I later discovered it was published verbatim. I also know from personal experience that many of the early folks involved with I-I were excommunicated for even the slightest disagreement with him. That lack of academic, editorial and personal challenge, plus some modicum of publishing success, led to this syndrome. Or rather likely exacerbated a personal tendency to an extreme.</p>
<p>Besides, what I find most interesting about integral these days no longer comes from him but can be found right here, Integral Review, Integral World, Integral Leadership Review, Institute for Integral Studies, etc.</p>