Intersubjectivity theory and Nonduality. - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T15:54:49Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/intersubjectivity-theory-and?xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI'm not sure if you are argui…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-20:5301756:Comment:19472010-06-20T14:24:49.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<i>I'm not sure if you are arguing for the existence of an Absolute or not.</i><br />
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I am not, at least as the absolute is depicted in the interpretations I've cited. For me that is "metaphysical" and I'm about enacting the postmetaphysical. See various recent discussions on what is PM to Batchelor to transitional structures to the Dalai Lama to Balder's conference paper.
<i>I'm not sure if you are arguing for the existence of an Absolute or not.</i><br />
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I am not, at least as the absolute is depicted in the interpretations I've cited. For me that is "metaphysical" and I'm about enacting the postmetaphysical. See various recent discussions on what is PM to Batchelor to transitional structures to the Dalai Lama to Balder's conference paper. I'm not sure what you want me…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-19:5301756:Comment:19422010-06-19T18:21:02.000Zrltruthseekerhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/rltruthseeker
I'm not sure what you want me to distinguish theurj. I'm not sure if you are arguing for the existence of an Absolute or not. I like the teachings of Dzogen...but I have to admit, I am not familiar with all the different Buddhist schools of thought...but I take only what is relevant and can apply to my own life. I think though that the samsara/nirvana issue (as expressed in the heart sutra), doesn't refer to two different ontological realities...but that samsara/nirvana is the same ontological…
I'm not sure what you want me to distinguish theurj. I'm not sure if you are arguing for the existence of an Absolute or not. I like the teachings of Dzogen...but I have to admit, I am not familiar with all the different Buddhist schools of thought...but I take only what is relevant and can apply to my own life. I think though that the samsara/nirvana issue (as expressed in the heart sutra), doesn't refer to two different ontological realities...but that samsara/nirvana is the same ontological reality, only seen differently.<br />
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I think that only Being has existence...Nonexistence by definition can't exist...when something is said to "not exist" then it only means it is "displaced" in time or place. Even our ideas "about" something exists, even if their correspondence doesn't seem to match "an empirical terrain."<br />
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If Reality exists (philosophers aren't in agreement if Reality exists or not, how funny) then I think it would be always be in agreement with itself (because it IS itself). Reality I think is separate from our own views of reality, yet it is only by our senses "touching" an "objective" Reality, that we realize that our subjective "realities" weren't true...or rather, perhaps our own ideas were partial. Ultimately, I think all ideas and concepts are an abstraction of Reality, but it is only by seeing how partial some of them were (for ourselves) that we are able to correct our own notions and embody different ways of being. I think that metaphysical realities should be de-emphasized, and am "post-modernistic" in the sense that sacred narrative can be re-written, but I'm still interested in preserving some of the spiritual (practical) truths that I have found in it.<br />
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The Dzogen teacher Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche says this:<br />
"Pure awareness is like a ball of clear crystal-colorless in itself but capable of reflecting anything: your face, other people, walls furniture. If you moved it around a little, maybe you'd see different different parts of the room and the size, shape or position of the furniture might change. If you took it outside, you could see trees, birds flowers--even the sky! Whatever appears, though, are only reflections. They don't really exist inside the ball nor do they alter its essence in any way.<br />
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Now suppose the crystal ball were wrapped in a piece of colored silk. Everything you saw reflected in it-whether you moved it around, carried it to different rooms, or took it outside-would be shaded to some degree by the color of the silk. That's a fairly accurate description of conditioned awareness: a perspective colored by ignorance, desire, aversion and the host of other obscurations. Yet these colored reflections are simply reflections. They don't altar the nature of that which reflects them. The crystal ball is essentially colorless.<br />
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Similiarly, pure awareness in itself is always clear, capable of reflecting anything, even misconceptions about itself as limited or conditioned. Just as the sun illuminates the clouds that obscure it, pure awareness enables us to experience natural sufferings and the relentless drama of self-created suffering: me versus you, mine versus yours, this feeling versus that feeling, good versus bad, pleasant versus unpleasant, or a desperate longing for change versus an equally frantic hope for permanence.<br />
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The truth of cessation is often described as a final release from fixation, craving or "thirst". However, while the term "cessation" seems to imply something different or better than our present experience, it is actually a matter of acknowledging the potential already inherent within us." Be mindful of the not only di…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-19:5301756:Comment:19382010-06-19T16:22:11.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
Be mindful of the not only diverse but divergent views of what "Nagarjuna's ideas" might be, even between adherents of the same Tibetan Prasangika Buddhist stream. Along the lines above on the differences that constitute the two truths, nonduality and emptiness according to Naggie see the essay I referenced recently <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/in-search-of-a-postmodern">here</a>. In a discussion on this topic Jackson says:<br />
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"The great Madhyamaka outlook…
Be mindful of the not only diverse but divergent views of what "Nagarjuna's ideas" might be, even between adherents of the same Tibetan Prasangika Buddhist stream. Along the lines above on the differences that constitute the two truths, nonduality and emptiness according to Naggie see the essay I referenced recently <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/in-search-of-a-postmodern">here</a>. In a discussion on this topic Jackson says:<br />
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"The great Madhyamaka outlook associated with certain Tibetan proponents of other-emptiness...[assert that] buddhahood is empty only of those conventionalities, while its natural purity, luminosity, and gnosis are eternally established and independently existent; thus... [it] involves negating the self-existence of conventional entities and concepts, but not of the ultimate buddha-mind" (232).<br />
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Granted some, including Balder, have argued that Dzogchen for example does not adhere to this other-emptiness doctrine. But Thakchoe, in <i>The Two Truths Debate</i> (Wisdom, 2007) says of Gorampa on this topic:<br />
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"Gorampa argues that ultimate truth is ontologically unconditioned, and hence it is not a dependently arisen phenomenon; it is distinct from empirical phenomenon in every sense of the word...it is an absolutely timeless and eternally unchanging phenomenon" (73).<br />
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And Thakchoe reminds us that Mipham*, the eminent Nyingma-Dzogchen proponent, is in agreement with Gorampa on this (42). As are more contemporary modern monists like Murti, on whom Wilber draws heavily in interpreting Nagarjuna.<br />
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* in footnote 170 Thakchoe says: "Mipham not only attempts to show that ultimate truth is the only truth but also takes one step further to show that ultimate truth is an absolute, therefore truly existent" (188). I like the idea of God as a n…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-19:5301756:Comment:19272010-06-19T04:08:53.000Zrltruthseekerhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/rltruthseeker
I like the idea of God as a nondual universal "ground of Being" (Tillich)...and that is how I understand God. I realize though that the idea of God can be both a hinderance or a means of progress. Eventually all ideas have to be relinquished in the abiding mind for realization to shine through.<br />
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<a href="http://www.satsangs.co.uk/interviews/finaldestination.shtml" target="_blank">Prajnaparamita</a>, a woman who does Advaita Vendanta says this:<br />
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"Little by little you will come to see that…
I like the idea of God as a nondual universal "ground of Being" (Tillich)...and that is how I understand God. I realize though that the idea of God can be both a hinderance or a means of progress. Eventually all ideas have to be relinquished in the abiding mind for realization to shine through.<br />
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<a href="http://www.satsangs.co.uk/interviews/finaldestination.shtml" target="_blank">Prajnaparamita</a>, a woman who does Advaita Vendanta says this:<br />
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"Little by little you will come to see that everything is empty, all feelings are empty, all experiences are empty. You go throught the experience of emptiness and see that emptiness is a concept, transparent and illusionary. Emptiness is a concept, [the idea of] God is a concept, self-realization is a concept. The sense of an observer evaporates altogether. Words fall short, but if can make do without words...openness, clarity, naturalness. You just live your life ou, as life itself."<br />
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This is also similiar to what the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said about God. That the "unknown God" makes way for the realizion of "the birth of God" within oneself, or the <i>realization</i> of divinity within ourselves, but don't concern <u>ideas of</u> divinity.<br />
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<i>"Therefore, if God is to speak his word to the soul, it must be still and at peace, and then he will speak his word, and give of himself to the soul and not a mere idea, apart from himself. Dionysus says: God has no idea of himself and no likeness, for he is intrinsically good, truth and being. God does all that he does within himself and of himself in an instant."</i> This is also what the Christian gnostic text, A Course in Miracles, talks about.<br />
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This is similiar to the ideas of Narguna and Sejuna Brahman. Sorry for the long delay...bu…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-19:5301756:Comment:19262010-06-19T03:32:51.000Zrltruthseekerhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/rltruthseeker
Sorry for the long delay...but my computer kept on crashing. I just bought a new one. :) I should be good for awhile.<br />
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Thank you kerry and theurj for your comments :)<br />
I like this quote from the first link you sent me theurj.<br />
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<i>If the essential nature of each sentient being and the universe as a whole is that of infinite, luminous space, endowed with all the qualities of perfect enlightenment, why is this not realized? Samantabhadra explains that the reality of all phenomena arising as…</i>
Sorry for the long delay...but my computer kept on crashing. I just bought a new one. :) I should be good for awhile.<br />
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Thank you kerry and theurj for your comments :)<br />
I like this quote from the first link you sent me theurj.<br />
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<i>If the essential nature of each sentient being and the universe as a whole is that of infinite, luminous space, endowed with all the qualities of perfect enlightenment, why is this not realized? Samantabhadra explains that the reality of all phenomena arising as displays of the all-pervasive, ground-awareness is obscured by ignorance. Consequently, the tathagatagarbha, which utterly transcends all words and concepts—including the very notions of existence and nonexistence, one and many, and subject and object—appears to be a blank, unthinking void, which is known as the universal ground (alaya) (p. 120). The experience of this void is comparable to becoming comatose or falling into contentless, dreamless sleep. From that state arises limpid, clear consciousness as the basis from which all phenomena appear; and that is the universal ground consciousness (alayavijñana). No objects are established apart from its own luminosity, and while it produces all types of appearances, it does not enter into any object. Just as reflections of the planets and stars appear in limpid, clear water, and the entire animate and inanimate world appears in limpid, clear space, so do all appearances emerge in the empty, clear, universal ground consciousness.<br />
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From that state arises the consciousness of the mere appearance of the self. The self, or I, is apprehended as being over here, so the objective world appears to be over there, thus establishing the appearance of immaterial space. To relate this evolution of the universe to the obscuration of the previously mentioned five types of primordial wisdom, it is said that ignorance initially obscures the inner glow of one's innate, primordial wisdom of the absolute space of reality (p. 122), which causes an external transference of its radiance.</i><br />
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I like the notion of a field of "luminous space" of consciousness. I don't think Buddhism is decidedly non-theistic, but I think the Buddha defered metaphysical questions because they upstructed from the experiental nature of enlightenment... I like how Vajrayana states that this primordial awareness is ever clear...yet we don't realize it with the thoughts that obscure it... but that it' s inherently pure.<br />
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"Emptiness" can refer to the emptiness of boundariess...but it can paradoxically be described as a "fullness" as Self...and that is the basis of Hindu and Christian mystics notions, which you said. I like both.<br />
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<i>;“<u>Yet, from the innermost secret nondual view of Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta there is no contradiction in the Atman-Self doctrine and the Buddhist doctrine of anatman or no-self,</u> for when the neti, neti (not this, not this) vichara consideration (p.209) is carried to its ultimate conclusion, the ostensibly permanent and eternal incarnating Atman-Self that is Brahman of the Upanishads, is ontologically identical to the 'emptiness of self' (anatman</i><br />
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I am more a practitioner more than a scholar ...but I'm interested in the ideas of Buddhist scholars. I really appreciate the pdf on Shankara that you sent me theurj. :) You might also check out the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-11:5301756:Comment:18422010-06-11T15:11:43.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
You might also check out the following article, which shows how various schools and individuals interpret this ancient debate. Here’s an excerpt from <a href="http://davidpaulboaz.org/Stromata/Shankara.pdf" target="_blank">“Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta”</a> by David Paul Boaz:<br />
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“Yet, from the innermost secret nondual view of Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta there is no contradiction in the Atman-Self doctrine and the Buddhist doctrine of anatman or no-self, for when the neti, neti (not this, not this)…
You might also check out the following article, which shows how various schools and individuals interpret this ancient debate. Here’s an excerpt from <a href="http://davidpaulboaz.org/Stromata/Shankara.pdf" target="_blank">“Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta”</a> by David Paul Boaz:<br />
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“Yet, from the innermost secret nondual view of Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta there is no contradiction in the Atman-Self doctrine and the Buddhist doctrine of anatman or no-self, for when the neti, neti (not this, not this) vichara consideration (p.209) is carried to its ultimate conclusion, the ostensibly permanent and eternal incarnating Atman-Self that is Brahman of the Upanishads, is ontologically identical to the 'emptiness of self' (anatman) of the Madhyamaka Prasangika (Rangtong), the great centrist view of Mahayana Buddhism” (188). Coming across this thread I'm…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-11:5301756:Comment:18402010-06-11T14:16:25.000ZKerry Jikishin Duganhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/KerryJikishinDugan
Coming across this thread I'm delighted.<br />
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Memories of Judith and Zoran, the many retreats we did together, their colorful stories of travels in India, a sense of who and how they are as persons, brings their writing alive with the echoes of felt sense. Rich!
Coming across this thread I'm delighted.<br />
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Memories of Judith and Zoran, the many retreats we did together, their colorful stories of travels in India, a sense of who and how they are as persons, brings their writing alive with the echoes of felt sense. Rich! Compare with Batchelor:
“''E…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-11:5301756:Comment:18372010-06-11T03:17:21.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
Compare with <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A1630&page=2#comments">Batchelor:</a><br />
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“''Emptiness is….not something we 'realize' in a moment of mystical insight that 'breaks through' to a transcendent reality concealed behind yet mysteriously underpinning the empirical world. Nor do things 'arise' from emptiness and 'dissolve' back into it as though it were some kind of formless, cosmic stuff…. From here it is only a hop,…
Compare with <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/stephen-batchelor?id=5301756%3ATopic%3A1630&page=2#comments">Batchelor:</a><br />
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“''Emptiness is….not something we 'realize' in a moment of mystical insight that 'breaks through' to a transcendent reality concealed behind yet mysteriously underpinning the empirical world. Nor do things 'arise' from emptiness and 'dissolve' back into it as though it were some kind of formless, cosmic stuff…. From here it is only a hop, skip, and a jump to equating emptiness with such metaphysical notions as 'the Absolute,' 'the Truth,' or even 'God.' The notion of emptiness falls prey to the very habit of mind it was intended to undermine." This is of course reflective…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-11:5301756:Comment:18362010-06-11T02:28:06.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
This is of course reflective of the discussion I've been having with myself in the Batchelor thread. Note how Blackstone describes this Buddhist, as opposed to Hindu, nonduality: And how it sounds very much like Vedanta, per the discussions above (and in Batchelor):<br />
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"a continuum of pure awareness that is not dependent on the physical body."<br />
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"When we reach this most subtle dimension of ourselves, everything appears to be transparent, made of empty, luminous stillness.... It appears to be…
This is of course reflective of the discussion I've been having with myself in the Batchelor thread. Note how Blackstone describes this Buddhist, as opposed to Hindu, nonduality: And how it sounds very much like Vedanta, per the discussions above (and in Batchelor):<br />
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"a continuum of pure awareness that is not dependent on the physical body."<br />
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"When we reach this most subtle dimension of ourselves, everything appears to be transparent, made of empty, luminous stillness.... It appears to be pervaded by—or made of—luminous space."<br />
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"All of the sensual stimuli...seem to emerge out of the vast open space of nondual consciousnes." Also note the relation to Neo…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2010-06-10:5301756:Comment:18352010-06-10T23:05:28.000ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
Also note the relation to Neo-Platonism, since Plotinus is for Kennilingusoro a representative of Western nondualism. As a former scholar-practitioner of a neo-Platonic Order I can vouch for the similarities Wallace notes between it and Vajrayana, although I only apprehend the latter as a scholar.
Also note the relation to Neo-Platonism, since Plotinus is for Kennilingusoro a representative of Western nondualism. As a former scholar-practitioner of a neo-Platonic Order I can vouch for the similarities Wallace notes between it and Vajrayana, although I only apprehend the latter as a scholar.