A Comprehensive Definition of Religion - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T11:41:40Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-religion?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A57035&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWorking on creating, editing,…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-26:5301756:Comment:569812014-06-26T18:29:32.740ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Working on creating, editing, linking together my "definitions wiki". Here's the draft entry on <a href="http://doowikis.com/m/qDXjGSHEel" target="_blank">SOUL</a>. Let me know if it says too much or need anything particular added to it.</p>
<p>Working on creating, editing, linking together my "definitions wiki". Here's the draft entry on <a href="http://doowikis.com/m/qDXjGSHEel" target="_blank">SOUL</a>. Let me know if it says too much or need anything particular added to it.</p> In another thread I also brou…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-26:5301756:Comment:569792014-06-26T13:03:37.646ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">In another thread I also brought up <a href="http://integralleadershipreview.com/10740-reflections-on-the-ethics-of-process-consultation-in-the-21st-century/">Otto Laske’s article</a> in the Aug/Nov ’13 issue of ILR. It is pertinent here as well, given that it supports and espouses a developmental framework. But it also cautions about its uses and misuses, something to which we must be attentive, especially when such frameworks unconsciously maintain the very sort…</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">In another thread I also brought up <a href="http://integralleadershipreview.com/10740-reflections-on-the-ethics-of-process-consultation-in-the-21st-century/">Otto Laske’s article</a> in the Aug/Nov ’13 issue of ILR. It is pertinent here as well, given that it supports and espouses a developmental framework. But it also cautions about its uses and misuses, something to which we must be attentive, especially when such frameworks unconsciously maintain the very sort of societal obstructions which they claim to overcome.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Therein Laske differentiates between culture and civilization. The 'soul' resides in the former whereas the latter is our everyday work life. In that sense it is akin to this thread, in that religion is the structuring force of a culture at large in its many domains. What has happened with developmental tech is that it has become a tool of its socio-historical capitalist civilization, in that its culture of the higher reaches of human potential (soul) has been instrumentalized to function as more efficient and productive workers within that context. Hence we get these spiritual evolutionaries running around thinking they're at the peak of human development, marketing and selling their wares at exorbitant rates, and sending their clients back into the same capitalist work world as if they can magically change it from within while not addressing the capitalist meme itself. And meanwhile continuing to consume everything at unsustainable rates thereby maintaining that status quo. Laske sees this as an unconscious bias of developmentalists that all the work is internal and individual, overlooking the external and social policies also necessary.</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Hence our soul has become a commodity, and ultimately the work of develomentalists is about our soul. So what does that look like when removed from the instrumentalized capitalist framework? How do we move this cultural (religious) force to the next phase of civilization, one more conducive to a soul (spiritual) development? And how do we enact this within the context of our coaching and counseling, when we have to balance what the client wants when their desires are to maintain and support a dying capitalist system and all its inherent dysfunctions and injustices? Do we not have a responsibility to elevate their soul so that their desires move beyond that system to one more equitable and just? These are questions I've been exploring all along in this movement, even before “<a href="http://www.integralworld.net/berge2.html" target="_blank">Giving guns to children</a>.”</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">So while I support this sort of project, I also understand Laske's concerns as to being careful to watch out for the pitfalls that have already led the movement astray. Which of course we must take into account as we push past the 'first veil,' as LP called it. Laske still believes in this developmental project, including profiling, despite the misapplications. As do I. We just need to continually refine the process as we go along with constant feedback, realizing this discipline is in its infancy. We must acknowledge that this is 'soul' work, and that may require of us to also enact the sort of civilization that can accommodate such a focus. And in that sense Rifkin, the Commons and ecological consciousness are a key part of our spiritual and religious journey and responsibility.</p> I was re-reading some posts o…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-25:5301756:Comment:570392014-06-25T15:44:31.403ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I was re-reading some posts on Laske, like <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A51563" target="_self">this</a> one and following when he responds to Michael Commons. A few excerpts:</p>
<p>"And while conceptual clarifications can help, if all the theory does is to 'pin down' a person 'at' at stage or 'between' stages (as most stage theories do), then we have already lost the dialectics that is relevant…</p>
<p>I was re-reading some posts on Laske, like <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/real-and-false-reason?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A51563" target="_self">this</a> one and following when he responds to Michael Commons. A few excerpts:</p>
<p>"And while conceptual clarifications can help, if all the theory does is to 'pin down' a person 'at' at stage or 'between' stages (as most stage theories do), then we have already lost the dialectics that is relevant here."</p>
<p>"This is also demonstrated by logical ('closed system') thinking being overcome, eventually, by 'post-'formal thinking or dialectical thinking (you say 'metasystematic' which is close but not the same as dialectical, in my view). I call this property of systems to be pervaded by absences their negativity (to speak with Bhaskar), and this absence will eventually catch up with systems (including theories) – as it does with the real world, too -- and make it break down or be seen more clearly as limited (which is the same thing, one ontological, the other epistemological)."</p>
<p>"I am also concerned with effects of systems on human agents because systems are typically used to classify, constrain, and subdue individuals, often with the pretension of 'helping' them (as in 'developmental coaching')."</p>
<p>"Now, when you look into this non-identical further, you come upon exactly those ABSENCES I spoke about above, gaps that changed thinking or real change will fill – there would be no change without absences pervading reality. This then leads to the distinction Bhaskar makes between 'reality' and 'actuality' where all that the sciences deal with is actuality but never reality which is a deeper concept."</p>
<p>"So, I guess I am looking for a developmental science – not just of humans – that can cope with Absences and is dialectical enough not to mistake actuality (which is transitory) for reality (which is violently transitory)."</p> Exactly. Once we push past t…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:568962014-06-24T20:59:26.896ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Exactly. Once we push past the "first veil" the question becomes one of competence, intelligence, morality and competency and quality of formulation/implementation. </p>
<p>We face both the intellectual challenge of clarifying parameters and the standard cultural challenge of artfully balancing the need to receive critiques with the need to not be stalled or reduced to self-doubt by the eternal possibility of questioning and denying voices. In facing these challenges we must keep in mind…</p>
<p>Exactly. Once we push past the "first veil" the question becomes one of competence, intelligence, morality and competency and quality of formulation/implementation. </p>
<p>We face both the intellectual challenge of clarifying parameters and the standard cultural challenge of artfully balancing the need to receive critiques with the need to not be stalled or reduced to self-doubt by the eternal possibility of questioning and denying voices. In facing these challenges we must keep in mind (as mentioned above) that there are many things -- both problems and solutions -- which may not show up until one experimentally attempts to implement. </p>
<p>When it comes to kennilingus we have a similar pattern of challenges: to embrace and deepen its exemplary efforts, to render it open-ended (both by alternatives and by presuming its open-endedness... i.e. defining problematic kennilinguists as NOT real kennilinguists), to expand it beyond the levels, lines and types in which it originated. The beauty of St. Paul was his assumption that Greeks and Romans could be as Christian as Jews. </p>
<p>So we have been clarifying the requirements that legitimate the growth of integrative thinking toward a point where it can responsibly begin the open-ended, responsible (and endlessly experimental/self-improving) implementation of new structures in all quadrants.</p> Btw, this is not a refutation…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:570352014-06-24T17:11:50.577ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Btw, this is not a refutation of hierarchy per se, since mereology is accepted. It's just in how a mereology is formulated, which can be done without the sort of Hegelian dialectic mentioned.</p>
<p>Btw, this is not a refutation of hierarchy per se, since mereology is accepted. It's just in how a mereology is formulated, which can be done without the sort of Hegelian dialectic mentioned.</p> And I'm in alignment with tho…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:569722014-06-24T16:33:20.095ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>And I'm in alignment with those parameters. I just have questions about not only responsible management but in how we determine what is considered higher levels that do the managing. Just taking the example of the model of hierarchical complexity, the system most used by the kennilinguists. Let's look at how they've fared so far in judging people's level of complexity. There are many within their own ranks that have challenged its rampant capitalistic orientation, let alone reducing everyone…</p>
<p>And I'm in alignment with those parameters. I just have questions about not only responsible management but in how we determine what is considered higher levels that do the managing. Just taking the example of the model of hierarchical complexity, the system most used by the kennilinguists. Let's look at how they've fared so far in judging people's level of complexity. There are many within their own ranks that have challenged its rampant capitalistic orientation, let alone reducing everyone who is not a kennilnguist to some lower level. Even the very nature of how the MHC formulates a higher level with Hegelian dialectic has been challenged by many in the movement, like Cook-Greuter, Torbert, Laske, Kallio and many more.</p>
<p>If they were in charge of profiling who qualifies for public office we'd be stuck in the capitalist paradigm and prevent the already emerging Commons. Granted it'd be a kinder, gentler capitalism, but given its inherent and apparently unacknowledged <em>metaphysical</em> components, it fails to even recognize the nature and scope of the emerging Commons. They would prevent its emergence by profiling out anyone who would promote such a Commons. I base this on how the kennilinguists have virtually ignored it to date, or if acknowledged reduce it to some kind of green meme that can be both spiritually and economically by-passed.</p>
<p>I am however encouraged that the integral movement as a whole is moving beyond kennilingus. The most recent ITC included both Bhaskar and Morin, who are expanding what integral means in directions I'm more comfortable with. We here at the forum have preceded that inclusion by years, and no doubt influenced that transition, most likely through Balder, who has his foot in both worlds.</p> Hey David,
Love The Prisoner.…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:570342014-06-24T16:15:18.237ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>Hey David,</p>
<p>Love The Prisoner. </p>
<p>1.</p>
<p>The only thing scarier than trying to set up a responsibly managed internal profiling system is allowing it to emerge (as it already is) with no particular intelligence or responsibility. If we don't do it it will happen anyway... in a shittier form.</p>
<p>2.</p>
<p>The only scarier than internal profiling is external profiling.</p>
<p>3.</p>
<p>The idea of MIP-civ is not a ceding of human control to machines... it is, at last, an…</p>
<p>Hey David,</p>
<p>Love The Prisoner. </p>
<p>1.</p>
<p>The only thing scarier than trying to set up a responsibly managed internal profiling system is allowing it to emerge (as it already is) with no particular intelligence or responsibility. If we don't do it it will happen anyway... in a shittier form.</p>
<p>2.</p>
<p>The only scarier than internal profiling is external profiling.</p>
<p>3.</p>
<p>The idea of MIP-civ is not a ceding of human control to machines... it is, at last, an attempt to ethically control machines and empower individuals by giving them control over their own data and decreasing the arbitrary influence of human and machine controllers over our lives. </p>
<p></p>
<p></p> I just saw the season finale…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:570322014-06-24T05:21:40.226ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I just saw the season finale of <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_%28TV_series%29" target="_blank">Continuum</a></em>, a sci-fi thriller created by Showcase out of Canada. While there are several sub-plots, its main plot line like others discussed above is how tech evolves to enable massive surveillance. And it's a battle for who controls that tech. Which of course is what's happening now with the battle over net neutrality. The corporations want the control for profit,…</p>
<p>I just saw the season finale of <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_%28TV_series%29" target="_blank">Continuum</a></em>, a sci-fi thriller created by Showcase out of Canada. While there are several sub-plots, its main plot line like others discussed above is how tech evolves to enable massive surveillance. And it's a battle for who controls that tech. Which of course is what's happening now with the battle over net neutrality. The corporations want the control for profit, same as in the series, while otherwise the Commons wants control to be distributed. If/when energy becomes distributed as in the TIR vision such political power can also be used wisely by the multitudes that attain to ecological consciousness.</p>
<p>So I guess one primary concern is, as noted in a <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-5-pillars-of-planetary-wisdom-civilization?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A56957" target="_self">recent post</a> in this thread, how a supposed 'integral' consciousness will be manifested. In the TIR version everyone has access to the massive data system as to communicate with each other and share the responsibility of monitoring each other and working together to facilitate the Commons.</p>
<p>I'm doubting that the sort of consciousness coming out of the kind of complexity favored by the other Commons (Michael Commons of the model of hierarchical complexity), and his formulation of higher levels, is of the same nature as the TIR Commons. That sort of baseline for judging what to do about the massive data seems to be more in alignment with the ideological, capitalist consciousness as a further extension of it, where an enlightened few philosopher-kings decide.</p> MIP-civ? Yikes! I think socie…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:571252014-06-24T04:43:18.004ZDavidM58http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/DavidM58
<p>MIP-civ? Yikes! I think societal development to appropriately manage such a system is a long ways off, no matter "who is using the data." Power still corrupts, and absolute power still corrupts absolutely. And if we can't trust humans with this power, can we trust human made machines?</p>
<p><a href="http://ranprieur.com/index.html" target="_blank">Ran Prieur</a> recently passed on this gem about the ethical concerns of innovation:…</p>
<p></p>
<p>MIP-civ? Yikes! I think societal development to appropriately manage such a system is a long ways off, no matter "who is using the data." Power still corrupts, and absolute power still corrupts absolutely. And if we can't trust humans with this power, can we trust human made machines?</p>
<p><a href="http://ranprieur.com/index.html" target="_blank">Ran Prieur</a> recently passed on this gem about the ethical concerns of innovation:</p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/can-we-design-systems-to-automate-ethics/">"Can we design machines to automate ethics?</a> The article starts with self-driving cars, and then gets into ethical dilemmas about when to sacrifice lives to save lives. Great couple of sentences:</p>
<p class="bq">As agency passes out of the hands of individual human beings, in the name of various efficiencies, the losses outside these boxes don’t simply evaporate into non-existence. If our destiny is a new kind of existential insulation - a world in which machine gatekeepers render certain harms impossible and certain goods automatic - this won't be because we will have triumphed over history and time, but because we will have delegated engagement to something beyond ourselves."</p>
<p class="bq">In another place Prieur said:</p>
<p class="bq">"I would rather live in a world with an occasional mass murder, than a world with all the limitations on freedom and privacy necessary to prevent it from ever happening again. More generally, I would rather live with the risk of acute pain, than the certainty of chronic pain."</p>
<p class="bq"></p>
<p class="bq">Talk of MIP-civ reminds me of that old show, The Prisoner.</p>
<p class="bq"><iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tra3Zi5ZWa0?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
</p> Good article on some edificat…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-06-24:5301756:Comment:569632014-06-24T01:57:49.832Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Good article on some edification agents: </p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://thespiritscience.net/2014/06/16/what-a-shaman-sees-in-a-mental-hospital/" target="_blank">http://thespiritscience.net/2014/06/16/what-a-shaman-sees-in-a-mental-hospital/</a></p>
<p>Good article on some edification agents: </p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://thespiritscience.net/2014/06/16/what-a-shaman-sees-in-a-mental-hospital/" target="_blank">http://thespiritscience.net/2014/06/16/what-a-shaman-sees-in-a-mental-hospital/</a></p>