HOW POST-RATIONAL POTENTIALS AGGRAVATE PRE-RATIONAL HABITS - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T22:23:37Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/how-post-rational-potentials-aggravate-pre-rational-habits?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A55941&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhat we essentially need is a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-05-01:5301756:Comment:559412014-05-01T17:54:45.924ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>What we essentially need is a concept which allows us to discern whether higher approaches are themselves inevitably provoking pre-conventional responses or whether this is associated with a fault, offensive or misguided appearance of the Higher.</p>
<p>For example --</p>
<blockquote><p>Is the anti-Green insurgency in America a direct result of the nature of Green <span style="text-decoration: underline;">or</span> a result of the "Amber" style in which Green appears and enters into Amberish…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What we essentially need is a concept which allows us to discern whether higher approaches are themselves inevitably provoking pre-conventional responses or whether this is associated with a fault, offensive or misguided appearance of the Higher.</p>
<p>For example --</p>
<blockquote><p>Is the anti-Green insurgency in America a direct result of the nature of Green <span style="text-decoration: underline;">or</span> a result of the "Amber" style in which Green appears and enters into Amberish conflict with the Amber substrate of other major social values blocs?</p>
</blockquote> At a very basic we should not…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-27:5301756:Comment:559312014-04-27T16:23:16.240ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>At a very basic we should not neglect the manner in which "dogmatic certainty" (or at the sense of willingness to make a non-ironic absolutist assertion) seems to be justified by the appearance of confidence exhibited by "the wise". As soon as you can see something new you have a piece of understanding that is less common. It therefore appears that your trust in it -- even if you can explain its reasoning -- is a quasi-arbitrary assertion. Thus the willingness to make such assertions in…</p>
<p>At a very basic we should not neglect the manner in which "dogmatic certainty" (or at the sense of willingness to make a non-ironic absolutist assertion) seems to be justified by the appearance of confidence exhibited by "the wise". As soon as you can see something new you have a piece of understanding that is less common. It therefore appears that your trust in it -- even if you can explain its reasoning -- is a quasi-arbitrary assertion. Thus the willingness to make such assertions in the absence of "seeing more" is provoked.</p> So somehow the notion of "lin…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-26:5301756:Comment:559302014-04-26T19:23:31.150ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>So somehow the notion of "lines" must enter into this discussion. </p>
<p>The cognitive truth of trans-rational stages is that they are VERY RATIONAL. And yet, presumably, a person can have only the most minimal cognitive access to a particular altitude while holding a great deal of energy in their spiritual, emotional or ethical modules of intelligence. That would necessarily look like a person who has a lot feeling about certain post-formal topics but only very infrequently sounds "sane"…</p>
<p>So somehow the notion of "lines" must enter into this discussion. </p>
<p>The cognitive truth of trans-rational stages is that they are VERY RATIONAL. And yet, presumably, a person can have only the most minimal cognitive access to a particular altitude while holding a great deal of energy in their spiritual, emotional or ethical modules of intelligence. That would necessarily look like a person who has a lot feeling about certain post-formal topics but only very infrequently sounds "sane" on these topics. </p>
<p>This must be added to the straight up deceptions and self-deceptions and misunderstandings involved in pre-formal personalities (and sub-personalities within ourselves) attributing post-formal status to themselves.</p>
<p>A lack of "fullness" or "width of stability" at one's peak cognitive altitude is almost a guarantee that one will manifest in ways that swamp the very structures and issues of that level with half-crystallized, misdirected and oddly-inappropriate-but-strongly-committed articulations.</p>
<p>When these people lash out at pantomime versions of higher levels they are trying to attack, digest and integrate the shadow effect produced by their own inability to cognitively accommodate their higher level energies.</p> I've devoted reams to just th…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-25:5301756:Comment:560242014-04-25T21:07:06.170ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>I've devoted reams to just that aspect, even saying that kennilingus <em>is</em> a more complex orange (formop) endeavor with exactly those characteristics. (At least in certain respects.) As is its partners in crime, like the model of hierarchical complexity, which don't understand how an accurate postmetaphysical level is constituted based on real reason, since they are engaged in metaphysically false reason. The latter is even extended into the so-called postformal levels, still tainted…</p>
<p>I've devoted reams to just that aspect, even saying that kennilingus <em>is</em> a more complex orange (formop) endeavor with exactly those characteristics. (At least in certain respects.) As is its partners in crime, like the model of hierarchical complexity, which don't understand how an accurate postmetaphysical level is constituted based on real reason, since they are engaged in metaphysically false reason. The latter is even extended into the so-called postformal levels, still tainted by the same metaphysics.</p>
<p>I know, I can be and have been accused of the same phenomenon in terms of being a green misinterpreting yellow and above. Time will tell which is the more accurate 'integral' view.</p> We should add to this:
THE VA…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-25:5301756:Comment:560222014-04-25T19:46:57.995ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>We should add to this:</p>
<p>THE VAIN SWITCHEROO: in which the "pre-" aggressively assumes it must already be the "post-"; a stressful and divisive caricature of the actually "post-" is asserted as though it were well-known and universal agreed with; one often sees this in the case of Amber and Orange attacking Green in the full self-flattery of assuming they have already triumphed over that lowly stage with all its obvious errors.</p>
<p>And note that must of the agitation of the lower…</p>
<p>We should add to this:</p>
<p>THE VAIN SWITCHEROO: in which the "pre-" aggressively assumes it must already be the "post-"; a stressful and divisive caricature of the actually "post-" is asserted as though it were well-known and universal agreed with; one often sees this in the case of Amber and Orange attacking Green in the full self-flattery of assuming they have already triumphed over that lowly stage with all its obvious errors.</p>
<p>And note that must of the agitation of the lower seems to target lower or incomplete elements within the higher. Thus Orange frequently and unfairly attacks Green based on the assumption that examples of Green-Cognition with Conformist Motivation are the quintessential examples of Postmodernity. Mismatches between the leading and supportive lines within the post- are of particular interest to the pre-.</p> Sub-species of "How Post- Agg…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-24:5301756:Comment:560192014-04-24T23:39:06.807ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p style="text-align: center;"><strong>Sub-species of "How Post- Aggravates Pre-"</strong></p>
<p></p>
<ul>
<li>CLOAKING: pre- takes advantage of the situation to disguise itself as post-; e.g. anti-social narcissistic manipulator styles himself as a "shaman"; Stalin perpetrates totalitarian oligarchy while pretending that he is securing "communism".</li>
<li>DESTROY THE OCCUPYING ENTITY: the post- is perceived as an incomprehensible and existential threat to an assembly of pre- groups; e.g.…</li>
</ul>
<p style="text-align: center;"><strong>Sub-species of "How Post- Aggravates Pre-"</strong></p>
<p></p>
<ul>
<li>CLOAKING: pre- takes advantage of the situation to disguise itself as post-; e.g. anti-social narcissistic manipulator styles himself as a "shaman"; Stalin perpetrates totalitarian oligarchy while pretending that he is securing "communism".</li>
<li>DESTROY THE OCCUPYING ENTITY: the post- is perceived as an incomprehensible and existential threat to an assembly of pre- groups; e.g. Arab tribalism confronting the Zionist state, alliance of rebels against Johnny Depp in Transcendence, mythic slaving states united against the threat of humanist American Federalism.</li>
<li>AFFIRM & DECONSTRUCT: the pre- affirms the post- and immediately tries numerous "helpful" and "pragmatic" tactics to neutralize the specific elements which distinguish the novelty of the post-; e.g. flakes supporting Wilhelm Reich, producers trying to "fix" the most interesting elements of a movie, translators "correcting" Gurdjieff, Kierkegaard or other trans-grammatical obscurantists.</li>
<li>DISCONFIRM THE STANDARD: pre- disavows any need to achieve the standard consciousness because it sees the standard challenged by post-; e.g. deconstructionism provokes narcissistic relativism, postmodern politics permits ethnic retribalization; the notion of electronic co-creative reality gives "thumbs up" to regressives who create Fox News, etc.</li>
</ul>
<p>This last one has two subdivisions. In one version the primitive mentality simply seizes upon the challenge to its adversary (the conventional level) as legitimation for "going wild". In other version the agents of advanced consciousness actually seek out and encourage people prematurely to affirm their views without have attained them. E.g. the Dadaists concept that anything can be art is actively promulgated to the point where a flood of uninspired detritus fills galleries. The willful assertion that my crap could be art was initially championed by great artists who tried to sway the population.</p>
<p>More categorizations to come, I'm sure...</p> A well-bred lady ought to sla…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-24:5301756:Comment:560182014-04-24T23:22:52.143ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>A well-bred lady ought to slap a fella for that kind of language!</p>
<p></p>
<p>My joke on the Lacanian term ("quilting point" or "the buck stops here") bears some similarity to the post-Aristotelian doctrine of a <em>crisis-of-recognition-that-annuls-ambivalence-or-ignorance</em> (an-agno-risis) leading to a <em>swing-or-fall-back-the-other-way</em> (peri-peteia)</p>
<p>Aristotle thought in terms of the superficial experience of the protagonist. Therefore the anagnorisis is commonly…</p>
<p>A well-bred lady ought to slap a fella for that kind of language!</p>
<p></p>
<p>My joke on the Lacanian term ("quilting point" or "the buck stops here") bears some similarity to the post-Aristotelian doctrine of a <em>crisis-of-recognition-that-annuls-ambivalence-or-ignorance</em> (an-agno-risis) leading to a <em>swing-or-fall-back-the-other-way</em> (peri-peteia)</p>
<p>Aristotle thought in terms of the superficial experience of the protagonist. Therefore the anagnorisis is commonly imagined as a moment in which the lead character consciously realizes an error or previously hidden fact which alters the course of their action. Othello "catches onto something" and then "changes his mind".</p>
<p>The unquilting point is less about the conscious psychological experience of the character and more about the unconscious psycho-social experience of the filmmakers. A certain tension has been communicated. It is present in the atmosphere and tempo of the production. It may or may not be well-represented by the character's beliefs about what kind of situation they are engaged in. It shows up as much in the soundtrack and camera angles as it does in the script. There is a problematic quality to the multi-media universe being collectively explored. Characters have numerous goals which seem not to get resolved no matter the wisdom and skill of their attempts. Or sometimes goals are resolved and it does not seem to make any difference.</p>
<p>And then...</p>
<p>The movie rushes to completion. All the different issues which a variety of different characters were struggling with, mysteriously unable to make progress upon, suddenly become ludicrously easy to solve. The audience barely needs to be shown the resolution. We take it for granted. The issue has vanished and perhaps none of the characters know why. They may not have realized anything. But if the audience goes back in their memory they will be able to identify the point at which the pathos suddenly drained out the production. This point, however trivial or seemingly unrelated to the surface issues, releases all the steam from the pressure-machine.</p>
<p>In Transcendence it accompanies a confession of a realization. But in Return of the Jedi it is the removal of Vader's helmet that confirms the epic tensions of the universe have vanished (and they do not return in any satisfactory sense until that helmet clicks back into place in Revenge of the Sith). In Noah the main character seems to turn a corner when he does not stab his infant granddaughters but even after they land in the Rainbow Kingdom the unresolved tension and inconclusiveness persists. Yet once the snakeskin wrist wrap is returned it is suddenly, almost unconvincingly, easy for him to stop drinking, rejoining the family, know what to do, appreciate everything, etc.</p>
<p>But I digress (or turn around)...</p> "What I call the 'unquilting…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-24:5301756:Comment:559242014-04-24T20:35:07.769ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>"What I call the 'unquilting point' (the moment in a movie which must be taken as the moral of the film since immediately afterwards the tension dissolves and all difficult issues are easily resolved)..."</p>
<p>So would that be the anagnorisis followed by the peripeteia?</p>
<p>"What I call the 'unquilting point' (the moment in a movie which must be taken as the moral of the film since immediately afterwards the tension dissolves and all difficult issues are easily resolved)..."</p>
<p>So would that be the anagnorisis followed by the peripeteia?</p> So this morning I have in min…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-24:5301756:Comment:559212014-04-24T15:58:37.771ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>So this morning I have in mind a possible distinction within this realm. It seems that in some cases the presence or potential of a <em>post</em>- stage becomes itself the target of attacks by the <em>pre</em>- and in other cases the post- serves as "permission" for the pre- not to accept the conventional.</p>
<p>In the first category such diverse phenomena:</p>
<p>In a recent interview, George R R Martin describes how his Ice and Fire saga (now popularly acclaimed for precisely its…</p>
<p>So this morning I have in mind a possible distinction within this realm. It seems that in some cases the presence or potential of a <em>post</em>- stage becomes itself the target of attacks by the <em>pre</em>- and in other cases the post- serves as "permission" for the pre- not to accept the conventional.</p>
<p>In the first category such diverse phenomena:</p>
<p>In a recent interview, George R R Martin describes how his Ice and Fire saga (now popularly acclaimed for precisely its post-fantasy elements) was enthusiastically received by many movie producers who only wanted to shorten it, remove the multiple protagonists, make it more heroic, etc. A common story faced by innovate writers in any genre. The expression of appreciation for their work takes the form of an assault on the very factors which make it appear progressive. </p>
<p>The more serious Aetherometry scientists working on developing a motor that runs on mass-free electricity have often complained that their work is undermined by enthusiasts who show up, wanting to help, wanting to popularize the work, and end up putting on magazine covers next to the Ghost of Elvis and the Tachyon Pyramid.</p>
<p>When the Chinese began to expand they immediate attacked and slaughter high Tibetan mystics. When the Russians invaded Afghanistan they imprisoned and killed Sufis. The Jews turned on "Jesus" and fanatical Muslims often make Sufis their own first target for suicide bombings. </p>
<p><em>These are all cases in which the lower is provoked to attack the higher. And it apparently is not dependent upon the conscious valuation or devaluation of the higher. </em></p>
<p>And yet in cases where a post-partisan, planetary and bodily consciousness awakens in populations they often stop voting. This is an example of the presence of a higher potential, higher glimpses, causes something in people to pull back to a position "below" the conventional level of assumed participation. A similar case exists in the person who becomes aware of (so-called) trans-egoic states and takes this as permission to flow along with their own narcissistic stream of consciousness. The exist of a beyond-ordinary discredits the efforts and qualities associated with the ordinary. Theurj's example of the more complexified conservative thinker becoming, counter-intuitively, more authoritarian belongs in this group..</p>
<p>So it looks like there are two slightly different manifestations of this general phenomenon. And I am intrigued by the fact that neither of them appear to be directly dependent upon whether a person "likes" or "dislikes" what they see in the post-stages.</p>
<p></p> The last link on p. 3 also me…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-24:5301756:Comment:556852014-04-24T12:59:24.122ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>The last link on p. 3 also mentions that the more complex conservative thinker tends toward the authoritarian. It also breaks down liberal/conservative into egalitarian-communitarian/hierarchical-individualist. It seems to be more a type than a level. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29" target="_blank">Lakoff</a> also uses strict-father and nurturing-parent types to distinguish conservative from liberal values. Which reminds me of the political compass discussed…</p>
<p>The last link on p. 3 also mentions that the more complex conservative thinker tends toward the authoritarian. It also breaks down liberal/conservative into egalitarian-communitarian/hierarchical-individualist. It seems to be more a type than a level. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_%28book%29" target="_blank">Lakoff</a> also uses strict-father and nurturing-parent types to distinguish conservative from liberal values. Which reminds me of the political compass discussed in <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/authoritarian-and-libertarian" target="_self">this</a> thread. Some here who have taken the test tend toward left-libertarian, which reminds me of <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/integral-anti-capitalism-part-ii?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A53921" target="_self">Corbett</a>'s contention that a more 'developed' socio-economic system is indeed libertarian socialism. Which of course relates to more 'developed' notions of cognitive processing.</p>
<p>Granted 'more complex' thinking here was not further parsed into typical developmental terms, like formop, systemic, meta-systemic and so on. Given formop is for most the typical metric for highest cognitive stage I've argued that formop is metaphysical to the core. I've even argued that's where kennlingus fails, itself being rather formop and metaphysical and hence its defense of capitalism. Even the Lingam admits to such a connection and at least gives the green meme a postformal marker, if only the 1st degree of so-called 2nd tier. A large part of pomo pluralism is indeed going postmetaphysical in its refutation of essentialism and foundationalism. So we can reasonably argue that our liberals are moving into postformop and our 'smart' conservatives are still stuck in formop to partially explain the above results. And how types might be linked to levels.</p>