Gregory Desilet - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T16:03:45Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/gregory-desilet?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59327&xg_source=msg_com_forum&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI should add that these exper…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-21:5301756:Comment:594602014-12-21T18:03:02.480Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I should add that these experiences are strictly sober and non drug related. 10 or so years prior ( early 20's)I have had certain experiences with certain substances. Seeing the whole universe as a living breathing intelligent entity ( macro). Seeing the intelligence of the human body on the nano level . And then there are the in-between experiences with Christianity: visions of ___ and angels just as described in various world traditions ( finding the descriptions well past the…</p>
<p>I should add that these experiences are strictly sober and non drug related. 10 or so years prior ( early 20's)I have had certain experiences with certain substances. Seeing the whole universe as a living breathing intelligent entity ( macro). Seeing the intelligence of the human body on the nano level . And then there are the in-between experiences with Christianity: visions of ___ and angels just as described in various world traditions ( finding the descriptions well past the experiences). </p>
<p>And of course, the ubiquitous flow states while working or golfing or hiking, etc.</p> I'm sleeping; yet wide awake,…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-20:5301756:Comment:595292014-12-20T22:44:15.690Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I'm sleeping; yet wide awake, how surreally strange ( a thought in hindsight ); all there seems to be is a timeless awareness, and nothing else. Thinking back on these occurrences, i could not say how long I had been aware, or how long I had been asleep; I couldn't even say that it was me having this awareness while sleeping. WIERD! </p>
<p>I don't do new agey type meditations; all I've done for the past 20 years or so is watch. I simply pay attention to what is happening with my mind.…</p>
<p>I'm sleeping; yet wide awake, how surreally strange ( a thought in hindsight ); all there seems to be is a timeless awareness, and nothing else. Thinking back on these occurrences, i could not say how long I had been aware, or how long I had been asleep; I couldn't even say that it was me having this awareness while sleeping. WIERD! </p>
<p>I don't do new agey type meditations; all I've done for the past 20 years or so is watch. I simply pay attention to what is happening with my mind. Images, endless chatter, past, future; I just acknowledge all of it with out judgement. It was a wow moment the first time I became aware of a gap between thoughts. Sometimes I can extend that gap for quite some time. </p>
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<p>Like reincarnation, I don't frame these experiences in any ideological folder. I just acknowledge that they happen and they seen strangely real enough, at least to me. I don't get that these experiences tell me anything about god, or whether or not god exits, or not. They are experiences within my mind. </p>
<p>My cultural conditioning leads to to believe that I could only commune with my higher spirit (god) but never be that spirit in the way some religions teach. No matter how much perceived unity I feel with the 'creator' at any given moment; I never have felt that I and the 'creator' were EXACTLY the same thing. </p>
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<p>And this is where I am at these days with my life. </p>
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<p>Possible ontologies based on my experiences :</p>
<p>- panentheism</p>
<p>-panendeism</p>
<p>-embodied pantheism ( spiritual atheism ) because I'm not 100% sure the other is 100% real. But I like to think so. I hold all these ideas non dogmatically. </p>
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<p></p> Thanks. I appreciated a lot o…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-20:5301756:Comment:595212014-12-20T01:03:17.775ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>Thanks. I appreciated a lot of his sensible points. For now I'll mention the one on context, that his anger has different types and levels depending on context. That was a main point in every one of the developmentalists I cited; and that there is no overall, consistent level overseeing all the lines and contexts. Certainly not Spirit, or direct access to consciousness per se in kennilingus.</p>
<p>As to my blog not receiving independent review, that's true, since I get few comments and…</p>
<p>Thanks. I appreciated a lot of his sensible points. For now I'll mention the one on context, that his anger has different types and levels depending on context. That was a main point in every one of the developmentalists I cited; and that there is no overall, consistent level overseeing all the lines and contexts. Certainly not Spirit, or direct access to consciousness per se in kennilingus.</p>
<p>As to my blog not receiving independent review, that's true, since I get few comments and respond there to fewer still. However that is not true of this forum, where I've had serious review from, and discussion with, several other peers.</p> Hi, I have copied it to a Wor…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-20:5301756:Comment:592952014-12-20T00:20:59.017ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Hi, I have copied it to a Word document and attached it below. The formatting came out strangely for some reason but it appears still readable.</p>
<p>Hi, I have copied it to a Word document and attached it below. The formatting came out strangely for some reason but it appears still readable.</p> For some reason I cannot acce…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-20:5301756:Comment:594542014-12-20T00:07:03.667ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>For some reason I cannot access Integral World. Would someone copy and save the post with comments and attach to this thread? Thanks.</p>
<p>For some reason I cannot access Integral World. Would someone copy and save the post with comments and attach to this thread? Thanks.</p> Andy Smith has joined the Wil…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-19:5301756:Comment:595202014-12-19T22:45:31.870ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Andy Smith has <a href="http://www.integralworld.net/smith54.html" target="_blank">joined the Wilber-Visser-Perez discussion</a>, referencing Gregory's work as well as Edwyrd's.</p>
<p>Andy Smith has <a href="http://www.integralworld.net/smith54.html" target="_blank">joined the Wilber-Visser-Perez discussion</a>, referencing Gregory's work as well as Edwyrd's.</p> As to the scientific study of…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-19:5301756:Comment:595192014-12-19T13:56:39.101ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>As to the scientific study of spiritual experience, we have <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/evan-thompson" target="_self">a thread</a> on Evan Thompson. He is doing exactly that, working with experienced Tibetan Buddhist meditators and combining MRI studies with their phenomenological descriptions of those states of consciousness.…</p>
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<p>As to the scientific study of spiritual experience, we have <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/evan-thompson" target="_self">a thread</a> on Evan Thompson. He is doing exactly that, working with experienced Tibetan Buddhist meditators and combining MRI studies with their phenomenological descriptions of those states of consciousness.</p>
<p><a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59083" target="_self">Here</a>'s one quote from the Introduction of his new book <em>Waking, Dreaming, Being</em>, <span><span class="UFICommentBody"><span>discussing chapter 3 on the issue of whether pure awareness transcends the brain: "[T]here is no scientific evidence to support this view. All the evidence available to us indicates that consciousness, including pure awareness, is contingent on the brain" (xxxv).</span></span></span></p>
<p>And <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/evan-thompson?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A45612" target="_self">this</a> post on his paper "Dreamless sleep, the embodied mind and consciousness."</p>
<p>"But whereas the Advaitin takes this minimal selfhood to be a transcendental witness consciousness, I think itʼs open to us to maintain that it is my embodied self or bodily subjectivity, or what phenomenologists would call my pre-personal lived body. In this way, I think we can remove the Advaita conception of dreamless sleep from its native metaphysical framework and graft it onto a naturalist conception of the embodied mind."</p>
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<p></p> While Wilber has been notably…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-19:5301756:Comment:594492014-12-19T06:25:59.906ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>While Wilber has been notably 'hard' on certain new age amplifications and extrapolations of quantum theory, for instance, or Green/eco-spiritual celebration of systems thinking -- exercising, here, a strong critical capacity -- he has also strangely been rather gullible when it comes to certain paranormal claims and figures, as the Trivedi incident reveals.</p>
<p>While Wilber has been notably 'hard' on certain new age amplifications and extrapolations of quantum theory, for instance, or Green/eco-spiritual celebration of systems thinking -- exercising, here, a strong critical capacity -- he has also strangely been rather gullible when it comes to certain paranormal claims and figures, as the Trivedi incident reveals.</p> Layman--secret ballot in the…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-19:5301756:Comment:593382014-12-19T06:05:10.049ZGregory Desilethttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/GregoryDesilet
<p>Layman--secret ballot in the legislature: interesting idea, must think about that. The annihilation of gerrymandering: very good idea. Add these to substantial campaign finance reform and this country might be capable of salvaging something resembling government by the people again.</p>
<p>Andrew--I don't believe Frank thinks science 3 is all woo-woo. He probably finds many of the conclusions reached thus far on Wilber's end to be woo-woo due to the lack of sufficient evidence,…</p>
<p>Layman--secret ballot in the legislature: interesting idea, must think about that. The annihilation of gerrymandering: very good idea. Add these to substantial campaign finance reform and this country might be capable of salvaging something resembling government by the people again.</p>
<p>Andrew--I don't believe Frank thinks science 3 is all woo-woo. He probably finds many of the conclusions reached thus far on Wilber's end to be woo-woo due to the lack of sufficient evidence, repeatability, and falsifiability. Frank just wants to be persuaded by good evidence, like most of the rest of us. Spirituality is a very difficult area for science to enter into. Though I admire Wilber's desire to move in this direction I don't think he or those he admires in this area maintain sufficient standards to be very persuasive in academic circles. A large amount of skepticism exists among academics even in the fields of social and psychological research due to problematic experimental design, insufficient sampling, difficulty controlling variables, and sometimes outright fraud. The literature exposing and debunking these "sciences" is growing rapidly every year. Wilber thinks "satori" is a demonstrable fact and that there are practices that if followed will lead others to the experience. But "satori"--like near-death experiences--is a fact only in a certain sense. People have the experience, yes. But what does it mean? How is it to be interpreted? Has the person with the near death experience actually gone to the "other side" and seen life after death? Has the person who has had the "satori" experience actually seen the face of God or had a cosmic merging or some such thing? Or, are these experiences simply induced through certain procedures and/or circumstances that give rise to intense sensations that give the illusion of something grand?</p>
<p>I know I'm not raising issues or asking questions that are anything new to this group. Personally, I'm open to evidence from adequately controlled research. There has been some recent evidence from an Arizona based neurosurgeon who found compelling reason to believe the mind of a woman he operated on functioned for something like a half and hour after her brain was incapable of neural firing (due to having been frozen). After the half hour or so of surgery her brain was thawed and she was brought back to a sleep state. She described what was going on during the surgery. This was fairly impressive evidence (can't find the link for it right now) in support of mind/brain separation. So, yes, I'm very much open to what is called science 3--investigations into mind/spirit activity independent of physical bodies. But we need really rigorous experimental designs in order to produce compelling evidence.</p>
<p>I think anyone willing to let well controlled evidence speak louder than analytical pronouncements--such as "that can't happen"--is in the camp of science. And that's where i put myself. I think Wilber wants to be there too, but he needs to raise his standards for what he is willing to accept as compelling evidence if he wants to be viewed as credible in academic circles of science. And in the academy the bar for what counts as "good science" is getting higher and higher as more is learned about the flaws of experimental design and the difficulty in controlling variables in fields relating to human behavior and experience.</p> Hey Gregory, I think there is…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-19:5301756:Comment:595182014-12-19T01:07:46.101Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Hey Gregory, I think there is one Integral stage, but I tend to agree with R/Pascal that that stage may be opening up in an MOA 123 kind of way. Maybe Newtonian/Einstein/_______ (put your fav. new physicist) kind of way. The previous MOA is improved upon and the newer MOA has better understanding of the nature of things. </p>
<p>So, science 123. It seems that your work is heavily influenced by science 2 ( phenomenology , deconstruction, etc.) and that you do try to mesh/put together science…</p>
<p>Hey Gregory, I think there is one Integral stage, but I tend to agree with R/Pascal that that stage may be opening up in an MOA 123 kind of way. Maybe Newtonian/Einstein/_______ (put your fav. new physicist) kind of way. The previous MOA is improved upon and the newer MOA has better understanding of the nature of things. </p>
<p>So, science 123. It seems that your work is heavily influenced by science 2 ( phenomenology , deconstruction, etc.) and that you do try to mesh/put together science 2 with insights from science 1. You even seem to consider seriously science 3 ( spirituality) . Is it wei-wu or woo-ooo; that is the question? </p>
<p>Do you know if it's Frank's view that science 3 is ALL woo-woo? As for myself, I get kind of suspicious when it looks like the Zero Theorem ( god in this usage) is TOO important to people. i couldn't really care less if god exists or not; but I keep an open space there, but the ideas of god have to fit through the goalposts of basic logic and reason ( at least as how i use those faculties). Let me give you an example: Reincarnation. In and of itself the idea is not irrational or illogical, I see it everyday in the waking/sleep cycle; the seasons, etc. But making dogmatic religious ideologies out of that idea is a very bad idea, imo. Does that make sense? </p>
<p>Wilber's ranking within science 3 has some problems. Privileged access, privileging one spiritual notion over all the others: the new John 316-- no one comes by Integral but by the one truth of non duality as I Wilber posit it………</p>