Enacting an Integral Revolution - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-28T13:08:20Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/enacting-an-integral-revolution?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A61310&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYes Ambo-- you might say I'm…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:613102015-05-15T21:30:52.539ZSri Doge Leehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AndrewVenezoa
<p>Yes Ambo-- you might say I'm projecting in a pretty major way!</p>
<p>Yes Ambo-- you might say I'm projecting in a pretty major way!</p> Ah yes, and I would further q…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:613092015-05-15T21:29:50.341ZSri Doge Leehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AndrewVenezoa
<p>Ah yes, and I would further qualify that reading your response Balder-- I hadn't read it yet when I wrote mine-- for example I probably wound't have written the word 'clean' if I'd read your response first. </p>
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<p>I think the core of what I'm getting at is in the line with 'what's arising is group material' -- transparency and non-transparency arise together, so there's more of an exploration into common appearances, experiences and related phenomenon, something which is less…</p>
<p>Ah yes, and I would further qualify that reading your response Balder-- I hadn't read it yet when I wrote mine-- for example I probably wound't have written the word 'clean' if I'd read your response first. </p>
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<p>I think the core of what I'm getting at is in the line with 'what's arising is group material' -- transparency and non-transparency arise together, so there's more of an exploration into common appearances, experiences and related phenomenon, something which is less possible when we're not aware of the mechanism of projection, and its role in creating the self/other. That last bit is what I mean by 'transparency,' the ability to faithfully communicate what you're experiencing, and the ability to faithfully receive what the other is communicating. </p>
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<p>But neither was this article something I'd gone through with a comb-- I wrote it fairly quickly and excitedly. </p> Yes, then, it sounds like you…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:616032015-05-15T20:20:12.375ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
Yes, then, it sounds like you have a loose and full enough understanding around projection. What a big project you have taken on :)<br />
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<cite>Sri Doge Lee said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/enacting-an-integral-revolution?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A61406&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment61406"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thank you very much Ambo- I am honored by your reading and your considerate response! <br></br><br></br>I'm…</p>
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Yes, then, it sounds like you have a loose and full enough understanding around projection. What a big project you have taken on :)<br />
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<cite>Sri Doge Lee said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/enacting-an-integral-revolution?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A61406&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment61406"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thank you very much Ambo- I am honored by your reading and your considerate response! <br/><br/>I'm using projection there in a way very similar to what you're pointing at with NVC-- the methodology I mention briefly in the piece "circling" works with very similar principles, and I see it as a basic (as in foundational) inter-personal practice for just that reason. <br/><br/>I'm not really saying don't project, but the fulcrum between the 'personal' inter-personal practices and the 'trans-personal' inter-personal practices is a fairly clean place (it has to be, of necessity), so if I am projecting, yes, I am much more likely to catch it and bring it into the open, since the road to that 'clean' place has been the practice of continually surfacing projections and working with them in the open. <br/><br/>So yeah, let projections arise-- and practice seeing through them. Then there's a place where anything I'm experiencing I'm doing so not through the lens of subject/object, but from a place where what's arising is group material, and I happen to be the 'me-instrument' in that-- the metric of my own individual experience. </p>
<p>This relates to the 'projecting one's interiors...' comment which I'm totally in agreement about (and which certain practices like Hubl's transparent communication make conscious use of)-- but this is a slightly different use of 'projection' than I intend here. </p>
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</blockquote> Thank you very much Ambo- I a…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:614062015-05-15T19:29:08.544ZSri Doge Leehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AndrewVenezoa
<p>Thank you very much Ambo- I am honored by your reading and your considerate response! <br></br><br></br>I'm using projection there in a way very similar to what you're pointing at with NVC-- the methodology I mention briefly in the piece "circling" works with very similar principles, and I see it as a basic (as in foundational) inter-personal practice for just that reason. <br></br><br></br>I'm not really saying don't project, but the fulcrum between the 'personal' inter-personal practices and the…</p>
<p>Thank you very much Ambo- I am honored by your reading and your considerate response! <br/><br/>I'm using projection there in a way very similar to what you're pointing at with NVC-- the methodology I mention briefly in the piece "circling" works with very similar principles, and I see it as a basic (as in foundational) inter-personal practice for just that reason. <br/><br/>I'm not really saying don't project, but the fulcrum between the 'personal' inter-personal practices and the 'trans-personal' inter-personal practices is a fairly clean place (it has to be, of necessity), so if I am projecting, yes, I am much more likely to catch it and bring it into the open, since the road to that 'clean' place has been the practice of continually surfacing projections and working with them in the open. <br/><br/>So yeah, let projections arise-- and practice seeing through them. Then there's a place where anything I'm experiencing I'm doing so not through the lens of subject/object, but from a place where what's arising is group material, and I happen to be the 'me-instrument' in that-- the metric of my own individual experience. </p>
<p>This relates to the 'projecting one's interiors...' comment which I'm totally in agreement about (and which certain practices like Hubl's transparent communication make conscious use of)-- but this is a slightly different use of 'projection' than I intend here. </p>
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</blockquote> I am still reading your blog,…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:615082015-05-15T19:01:53.170ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>I am still reading your blog, Andrew, but I just read the paragraph Ambo addresses here, and I believe I would echo his point. I'm not certain we can, or even should, escape all 'projection,' at least in its more general (non-pathologizing) sense. In an enactive understanding, and in a postmetaphysical one as well which critiques the metaphysics of presence, we never achieve total transparency or escape projection; in fact, it is part of the cocreatively emerging tissue of our relation. …</p>
<p>I am still reading your blog, Andrew, but I just read the paragraph Ambo addresses here, and I believe I would echo his point. I'm not certain we can, or even should, escape all 'projection,' at least in its more general (non-pathologizing) sense. In an enactive understanding, and in a postmetaphysical one as well which critiques the metaphysics of presence, we never achieve total transparency or escape projection; in fact, it is part of the cocreatively emerging tissue of our relation. Sloterdijk has, at the beginning of one of his Spheres trilogy books, a statement to the effect that only those who understand and value the dynamics of projection should venture further into the text...</p> Hi Sri Doge - I liked reading…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-15:5301756:Comment:613062015-05-15T13:36:01.225ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>Hi Sri Doge - I liked reading your paper and I bow both to the importance of it and the high challenge of it. Many of the skills and intentions mentioned for consciously making the world a better place have not been my forte. Thanks for doing it.</p>
<p>I am a little familiar with some of the ideas though I have garnered them in passing, through osmosis, and as dabbler. I spent some time in a workshop with David Bohm at the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California, so I light up a bit when I…</p>
<p>Hi Sri Doge - I liked reading your paper and I bow both to the importance of it and the high challenge of it. Many of the skills and intentions mentioned for consciously making the world a better place have not been my forte. Thanks for doing it.</p>
<p>I am a little familiar with some of the ideas though I have garnered them in passing, through osmosis, and as dabbler. I spent some time in a workshop with David Bohm at the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California, so I light up a bit when I hear him referenced. Too bad I was in way over my heart and head at the time.</p>
<p>Regarding your parting inquiry, I think that Marshall Rosenberg's "compassionate [non-violent] communication" is a methodology for beginning to clear out assumptions and reactive patterns that get in the way of authenticity and a feeling of group safety. As a skill set for learning to describe situations with more objectivity, for getting in touch with the feelings that we try to obfuscate and defend against, for coming to feel and identify universal human needs, and for beginning to practice one's courage to speak out, as with making requests, the work may be a good set of training wheels for your large intent and an apparent global need.</p>
<p>I have one small comment about what I would change, were I the author.</p>
<p>"Unless I am playing a zero-sum game against you, it is in both of our interests to be transparent, which involves learning how to effectively communicate not only larger scale messages, which is perhaps more the traditional meaning of rhetoric, but also simply what my own moment-to-moment experience is <strong>without projection</strong>, helping to create the kind of intersubjective resonance from which an awakened field can emerge."</p>
<p>Because I use and hear a broader definition of "projection" than the conventional simply a troublesome defense mechanism, I would probably say something like "minimizing projection" or "being alert to projection, especially disruptive or unhealthy projection." It seems tricky to me and I don't know quite the best way to address it.</p>
<p>I tend to think that projection is a mechanism of expressing outward that which is inside, unconscious surely, but also conscious. For me, to say "don't project" is a little like saying "be objective", "leave the subjective out of this". Contemporary psychoanalysis has made a good case that it is not possible to take a position of objectivity. Projecting ones' interiors may be part of what makes up the intersubjective.</p>
<p>So for me this has to do with more qualifying and seeing this dynamic as an ongoing inquiry and process. I'm guessing that this is not that far from you are saying. As I did a very quick internet check on the word, "projection", most of them did say a defense mechanism. One psychoanalytic definition said, "A psychoanalytical theory, projection is the process whereby one <a href="http://psychologydictionary.org/subject/" title="The participant (either a human or non human) that is taken for the purpose of doing research. It also refers the area or branch of [...]">subject</a> believes they see attributes (both good and bad) in another." It did however go on to speak of defense mechanisms.</p>
<p>I'm sure it is fine the way it is, but my post-modern self wants to qualify most everything :)</p>
<p>May your work go well. ambo</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Sri Doge Lee said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/enacting-an-integral-revolution?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A61502&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment61502"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hey folks- Balder asked me to post this here-- the day my daughter was born! I'm just getting around to it now, quite a bit late: </p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rhetorical-practice-and-evolutionary-being-as-the-world-together-a-response-to-terry-patten/" target="_blank">http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rheto...</a></p>
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</blockquote> Hey folks- Balder asked me to…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2015-05-14:5301756:Comment:615022015-05-14T14:54:33.535ZSri Doge Leehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AndrewVenezoa
<p>Hey folks- Balder asked me to post this here-- the day my daughter was born! I'm just getting around to it now, quite a bit late: </p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rhetorical-practice-and-evolutionary-being-as-the-world-together-a-response-to-terry-patten/" target="_blank">http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rheto...</a></p>
<p>Hey folks- Balder asked me to post this here-- the day my daughter was born! I'm just getting around to it now, quite a bit late: </p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rhetorical-practice-and-evolutionary-being-as-the-world-together-a-response-to-terry-patten/" target="_blank">http://newwaysofhumanbeing.com/2013/09/11/some-notes-on-trans-rheto...</a></p> See the first part of this po…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-02:5301756:Comment:552472014-04-02T18:02:56.450ZEdward theurj Bergehttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/theurj
<p>See the first part of <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/object-oriented-ontology?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A55244" target="_self">this post</a>, Bryant discussing performative rhetoric, similar to Patten's trans-rhetoric perhaps?</p>
<p>See the first part of <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/object-oriented-ontology?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A55244" target="_self">this post</a>, Bryant discussing performative rhetoric, similar to Patten's trans-rhetoric perhaps?</p> I don't mean to be prickly he…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-04-01:5301756:Comment:553382014-04-01T04:38:18.145Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I don't mean to be prickly here, but i have to ask, is Hedges just being mean to an Integral Obama? Serious question, though.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/fighting_the_militarized_state_20140330" target="_blank">http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/fighting_the_militarized_state_20140330</a></p>
<p>I don't mean to be prickly here, but i have to ask, is Hedges just being mean to an Integral Obama? Serious question, though.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/fighting_the_militarized_state_20140330" target="_blank">http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/fighting_the_militarized_state_20140330</a></p> I'd like to point out the int…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-03-31:5301756:Comment:552332014-03-31T08:01:29.643Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I'd like to point out the intersubjective interior we-spaces have been happening throughout every culture in human history. The monks and nuns in their abbey's, potlatch ceremonies, and i could go on and on. Integral theory likes to imply that prior to 150 years ago their wasn't a person on the planet that new that women should be treated as equals; that all people are deserving of dignity and respect regardless of their class or sexual proclivities, it's true that these people were in the…</p>
<p>I'd like to point out the intersubjective interior we-spaces have been happening throughout every culture in human history. The monks and nuns in their abbey's, potlatch ceremonies, and i could go on and on. Integral theory likes to imply that prior to 150 years ago their wasn't a person on the planet that new that women should be treated as equals; that all people are deserving of dignity and respect regardless of their class or sexual proclivities, it's true that these people were in the minority but we have always been here. And newsflash, there have always been people who became aware of the nature of the present moment and didn't feel the need to reify that state as something extraordinary. Obviously, i don't really have a quarrel with these folks and i get that they have heart, and, are right in my opinion, that love is at the heart of the universe; but this love isn't for a chosen few, it's for everyone, all we have to do is but choose and that door would open. But god is the left hand path, too. And those ways also have to run their course. </p>
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