An Integral Postmetaphysical Definition of States - Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality2024-03-29T10:47:16Zhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/an-integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A5096&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAndrew, yes, I've framed it i…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-29:5301756:Comment:596212014-12-29T17:04:42.562ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Andrew, yes, I've framed it in similar ways in past discussions. I can't find the original discussion, but here is <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-meaning-of-planetary-civilization-tim-winton?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A52640" target="_self">a briefer comment</a> getting at the same thing. Basically, postmetaphysics is not opposed to metaphysics -- it is how metaphysics shows up post-critically, post-postmodernism...</p>
<p>Andrew, yes, I've framed it in similar ways in past discussions. I can't find the original discussion, but here is <a href="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/the-meaning-of-planetary-civilization-tim-winton?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A52640" target="_self">a briefer comment</a> getting at the same thing. Basically, postmetaphysics is not opposed to metaphysics -- it is how metaphysics shows up post-critically, post-postmodernism...</p> Hi Lay - your prefix play bro…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-29:5301756:Comment:596202014-12-29T15:11:48.240ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>Hi Lay - your prefix play brought a smile.</p>
<p>How you describe the evolution of and ongoing challenges to the usage of "metaphysics" and someone's assertions about metaphysics sounds right to me, and I think the apparently inexorable process can be well looked as 'layers'.</p>
<p>Btw, Layman, in case I wasn't clear in one of my comments, when I said "Get over it." I was talking to myself, with a little humor and irony. Get over the fact that the more commonly shared definition of…</p>
<p>Hi Lay - your prefix play brought a smile.</p>
<p>How you describe the evolution of and ongoing challenges to the usage of "metaphysics" and someone's assertions about metaphysics sounds right to me, and I think the apparently inexorable process can be well looked as 'layers'.</p>
<p>Btw, Layman, in case I wasn't clear in one of my comments, when I said "Get over it." I was talking to myself, with a little humor and irony. Get over the fact that the more commonly shared definition of metaphysics (speculation on original causes) was not going to conform to my old glitchworthy fixations.</p>
<p>You said, "To say that postmetaphysics gets over speculation regarding first causes is only to say that there exists a level at which first causes are looked back upon as unproven elements of someone else's metaphysics." I couldn't tell if you got where my voice was pointed. And luckily, it doesn't matter - your point still stands.</p>
<p>Skipping to the side a little, now, I want to share a phrasing I just read in a semi-fluffy news piece that also conveys the sometimes messy and capricious and inexorable process of 'meaning'.</p>
<p>"Hygge, originally a Norwegian word for "well-being," first appeared in Danish near the end of the 18th century, according to Denmark's tourism bureau. It has evolved into a big part of Danish life since then, <strong>absorbing connotations over time like a semantic snowball</strong>." [I embolden the metaphor that amuses me]</p>
<div style="overflow: hidden; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff; text-align: left; text-decoration: none;"><a rel="nofollow" style="color: #003399;" href="http://www.mnn.com/family/family-activities/blogs/how-hygge-can-help-you-get-through-winter#ixzz3NIeWPXBh">http://www.mnn.com/family/family-activities/blogs/how-hygge-can-hel...</a></div>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Layman Pascal said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/an-integral-postmetaphysical?commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59351&xg_source=activity#5301756Comment59351"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>The banal origins of META- are perfectly appropriate. Where else would we think our ancestors got their notions of "beyond" and "including more" and "what comes next" other than from simple situations in which something (i.e. the works of Aristotle) was followed some more/other stuff? </p>
<p>While we're on the subject of prefixes:</p>
<p>TRANS- goes across, or through, to the "other side".</p>
<p>PARA- sits next to, is adjacent to, is beside.</p>
<p>ULTRA- goes so far that it virtually becomes its opposite. </p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>So METAPHYSICS adds an additional set of entities to PHYSICS. It goes beyond the original set and enlarges its scope of comprehensiveness.</p>
<p>TRANSPHYSICS is what happens to former physicists! </p>
<p>PARAPHYSICS is a functional system that operates in tandem or in parallel with physics.</p>
<p>ULTRAPHYSICS is so devoted to materialism that it becomes idealistic fantasy. </p>
<p>-----------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>Now here's the trouble. And it is the reason I started the broccoli and masturbation (integral definition of metaphysics) thread. Each successive layer of cultural consciousness adds a new demand to its predecessor. The metaphysics (entities added to physics) of each level seems natural at that level. At the next level we demand proof and skepticism about <em>their</em> metaphysics.</p>
<p>To say that postmetaphysics gets over speculation regarding first causes is only to say that there exists a level at which first causes are looked back upon as unproven elements of someone else's metaphysics. To keep this in the picture I often use Metaphysics of Adjacency instead of Postmetaphysics.</p>
<p>What is misleading is the binary notion of metaphysics and physics, or metaphysics and postmetaphysics. When the definition itself becomes level-dependent then a lot of these quibbles vanish.</p>
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</blockquote> I wonder if this proposal ma…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-29:5301756:Comment:595402014-12-29T03:32:50.537Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>I wonder if this proposal may be of utility. I wonder if it would be helpful if we were to think this way: that there was a time of pre conventional metaphysics where anything and everything was once thought of as an explanation for existence/reality/being; that this era had early, middle and late phases. This transitioned to the times of conventional metaphysics where empiricism, reason, logic, scientific method, became the tools and criteria used to discern existence/reality/ being. This…</p>
<p>I wonder if this proposal may be of utility. I wonder if it would be helpful if we were to think this way: that there was a time of pre conventional metaphysics where anything and everything was once thought of as an explanation for existence/reality/being; that this era had early, middle and late phases. This transitioned to the times of conventional metaphysics where empiricism, reason, logic, scientific method, became the tools and criteria used to discern existence/reality/ being. This era also had its early and late phases. This era is slowly transitioning to a post conventional metaphysics wherein the previous conventional era is examined and deconstructed . This era has its early phase (MOA1) and potential late phase ( MOA 3/4) . Perhaps there are already a few people that are perceiving an even newer era and are intuiting today a deconstruction of the present era. Perhaps the early phase of a post conventional metaphysics reconsiders some of the strict knowledge claims posited by the conventional metaphysicians ( that existence/reality/being is strictly material and physical). That the post conventional metaphysicians have more flexibility and less stiffness when dealing with conventional orthodoxies. This would put Wilber squarely in the post conventional metaphysics era and explain his proclivity to endorse spiritual hypothesis ( a reconsideration of some of the better spiritual explanations from previous eras ). This era may even introduce new spiritual ideas or proposals. Under this proposal Tart would be categorized as a post conventional metaphysician positing a systems approach to various states of being.</p>
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<p>Anyway, my brood very much enjoyed the last Hobbit and everyone agreed that this final film of the triage was the one we all liked the most.</p> The banal origins of META- ar…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-29:5301756:Comment:593512014-12-29T00:13:54.330ZLayman Pascalhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/LaymanPascal
<p>The banal origins of META- are perfectly appropriate. Where else would we think our ancestors got their notions of "beyond" and "including more" and "what comes next" other than from simple situations in which something (i.e. the works of Aristotle) was followed some more/other stuff? </p>
<p>While we're on the subject of prefixes:</p>
<p>TRANS- goes across, or through, to the "other side".</p>
<p>PARA- sits next to, is adjacent to, is beside.</p>
<p>ULTRA- goes so far that it virtually…</p>
<p>The banal origins of META- are perfectly appropriate. Where else would we think our ancestors got their notions of "beyond" and "including more" and "what comes next" other than from simple situations in which something (i.e. the works of Aristotle) was followed some more/other stuff? </p>
<p>While we're on the subject of prefixes:</p>
<p>TRANS- goes across, or through, to the "other side".</p>
<p>PARA- sits next to, is adjacent to, is beside.</p>
<p>ULTRA- goes so far that it virtually becomes its opposite. </p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>So METAPHYSICS adds an additional set of entities to PHYSICS. It goes beyond the original set and enlarges its scope of comprehensiveness.</p>
<p>TRANSPHYSICS is what happens to former physicists! </p>
<p>PARAPHYSICS is a functional system that operates in tandem or in parallel with physics.</p>
<p>ULTRAPHYSICS is so devoted to materialism that it becomes idealistic fantasy. </p>
<p>-----------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>Now here's the trouble. And it is the reason I started the broccoli and masturbation (integral definition of metaphysics) thread. Each successive layer of cultural consciousness adds a new demand to its predecessor. The metaphysics (entities added to physics) of each level seems natural at that level. At the next level we demand proof and skepticism about <em>their</em> metaphysics.</p>
<p>To say that postmetaphysics gets over speculation regarding first causes is only to say that there exists a level at which first causes are looked back upon as unproven elements of someone else's metaphysics. To keep this in the picture I often use Metaphysics of Adjacency instead of Postmetaphysics.</p>
<p>What is misleading is the binary notion of metaphysics and physics, or metaphysics and postmetaphysics. When the definition itself becomes level-dependent then a lot of these quibbles vanish.</p>
<p></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Ambo Suno said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/an-integral-postmetaphysical?page=11&commentId=5301756%3AComment%3A59477&x=1#5301756Comment59350"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">Very good Bruce, and Andrew -<br/> <br/> I'm going to have to read and study more into your summary and related themes and links. May take a while. How you write sounds clear - and I think I may have some mud in my eye :)<br/> <br/> As I have alluded in the past, in addition to not having studied and become conversant in some of these philosophical and other ideas, I seem to have a glitch more generally in how language has evolved, morphed, and done fancy dance moves toward new usages. It probably has something to do with my early indoctrinations about language and how it represents a given world of things in reliably fixed ways. Apparently I have some presumptions about etymology being a reliable way to trace how words have come to mean what they mean - various contexts notwithstanding.<br/> <br/> The glitches I refer to now are of course around post-metaphysics, but more, starting with meta-physics.<br/> <br/> Though I have come to understand in a more educated way that this is not reliably so, I seem to be a bit hooked to the early logics that I have learned. I studied three years of Latin and my dad's family had also learned Greek, and as is the MO for legal and medical thinking, words' meanings ought to be able to be traced in order to reveal original and evolving intents - so went the logic.<br/> <br/> You know, root meanings and later derivations, plus prefixes and suffixes and surrounding qualifiers. Like post-modern is easier than post-metaphysical because, I suppose, it is clearer what is meant by modern than metaphysical. Meta-theory or meta-research is more obvious than meta-physical. In the first two instances, the meta adds a relatively clear suggestion that meta means an over-arching, over-viewing, sort of summarizing or getting a new perspective that can go further in some way from the included lesser perspectives of specific theories and research studies.<br/> <br/> Meta-physical, not so clear. Does meta suggest what is beyond, what is an overviewing of the physical?<br/> <br/> Hopefully, I can learn a new basis for the meaning of metaphysics and not continue to mentally glitch. I will be able to say metaphysical this and that and then get the etymological turn that is post-metaphysical and be on the road to aptly conversant.<br/> <br/> As I write this and glance back it all sounds a bit silly, embarrassing around the perhaps obsessive stuckness. Ah, well - one of my lesser foibles and sins :)<br/> <br/> Some hope and help has arrived in the form of the online Etymological Dictionary - <a rel="nofollow" href="http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=metaphysics&allowed_in_frame=0" target="_blank">http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=metaphysics&allowed_in_fra...</a><br/> <br/> Metaphysics<br/> 1560's plural of Middle English metaphysik, methaphesik - "branch of speculation that deals with first causes of things," from Medieval Latin metaphysica, neuter pleural of Meideval Greek (ta) metaphysika from Greek ta meta ta physika [HERE IS THE KICKER, GUYS, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ALREADY] "the (works) after the Physics", title after the 13 treatises which traditionally arranged after those on physics and natural sciences in Aristotle's writings. The name was given c70 B.C.E by Andonicus of Rhodes and was a reference to customary ordering of the books [HERE'S WHERE THE KICKING BOOT OF HISTORY CONFOUNDS THE EASILY CONFOUNDED, ie, ME] but it was misinterpreted by Latin writers as meaning "the science of what is beyond the physical" [PERHAPS SUGGESTING THE SAME OF ME THAT WHENEVER I HEAR THE WORD METAPHYSICS, I REFLEXIVELY THINK THE SCIENCE OF PHYSICS AND WHAT COMES AFTER OR IS BEYOND THAT IN SOME SEEMINGLY LOGICAL WAY.] See meta + physics...<br/> <br/> Oy vey - TMI? Over-sharing?<br/> <br/> So discard the many decades of sometimes erroneous logic and habits.<br/> <br/> Ambo, metaphysics simply means speculation regarding first causes! Get over it.<br/> <br/> Post-metaphysics to be dealt with later - apparently different people think that there needs to be acknowledged a turn, a shift, a qualitatively different signifier for a way of understanding how the world is and how it works with us possibly Post-metaphysical thinkers. Hah.</div>
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</blockquote> :-) I was going to say the s…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:594772014-12-28T18:18:43.009ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>:-) I was going to say the same thing as is said in the etymological passage you quoted: apparently, the 'meta' in the original coining of the word had to do with the order in which the books were written, not with any special meaning of the topic at hand. So, perhaps it is the somewhat misleading origin of the word that tends to cloud things up a bit. Because a common colloquial understanding of metaphysics has to do with what is 'beyond' physics in an ontological sense, as in occult…</p>
<p>:-) I was going to say the same thing as is said in the etymological passage you quoted: apparently, the 'meta' in the original coining of the word had to do with the order in which the books were written, not with any special meaning of the topic at hand. So, perhaps it is the somewhat misleading origin of the word that tends to cloud things up a bit. Because a common colloquial understanding of metaphysics has to do with what is 'beyond' physics in an ontological sense, as in occult and psi phenomena (going by the "Metaphysical" section of most book stores...)</p> Very good Bruce, and Andrew -…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:593502014-12-28T18:03:28.351ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
Very good Bruce, and Andrew -<br></br>
<br></br>
I'm going to have to read and study more into your summary and related themes and links. May take a while. How you write sounds clear - and I think I may have some mud in my eye :)<br></br>
<br></br>
As I have alluded in the past, in addition to not having studied and become conversant in some of these philosophical and other ideas, I seem to have a glitch more generally in how language has evolved, morphed, and done fancy dance moves toward new usages. It…
Very good Bruce, and Andrew -<br/>
<br/>
I'm going to have to read and study more into your summary and related themes and links. May take a while. How you write sounds clear - and I think I may have some mud in my eye :)<br/>
<br/>
As I have alluded in the past, in addition to not having studied and become conversant in some of these philosophical and other ideas, I seem to have a glitch more generally in how language has evolved, morphed, and done fancy dance moves toward new usages. It probably has something to do with my early indoctrinations about language and how it represents a given world of things in reliably fixed ways. Apparently I have some presumptions about etymology being a reliable way to trace how words have come to mean what they mean - various contexts notwithstanding.<br/>
<br/>
The glitches I refer to now are of course around post-metaphysics, but more, starting with meta-physics.<br/>
<br/>
Though I have come to understand in a more educated way that this is not reliably so, I seem to be a bit hooked to the early logics that I have learned. I studied three years of Latin and my dad's family had also learned Greek, and as is the MO for legal and medical thinking, words' meanings ought to be able to be traced in order to reveal original and evolving intents - so went the logic.<br/>
<br/>
You know, root meanings and later derivations, plus prefixes and suffixes and surrounding qualifiers. Like post-modern is easier than post-metaphysical because, I suppose, it is clearer what is meant by modern than metaphysical. Meta-theory or meta-research is more obvious than meta-physical. In the first two instances, the meta adds a relatively clear suggestion that meta means an over-arching, over-viewing, sort of summarizing or getting a new perspective that can go further in some way from the included lesser perspectives of specific theories and research studies.<br/>
<br/>
Meta-physical, not so clear. Does meta suggest what is beyond, what is an overviewing of the physical?<br/>
<br/>
Hopefully, I can learn a new basis for the meaning of metaphysics and not continue to mentally glitch. I will be able to say metaphysical this and that and then get the etymological turn that is post-metaphysical and be on the road to aptly conversant.<br/>
<br/>
As I write this and glance back it all sounds a bit silly, embarrassing around the perhaps obsessive stuckness. Ah, well - one of my lesser foibles and sins :)<br/>
<br/>
Some hope and help has arrived in the form of the online Etymological Dictionary - <a rel="nofollow" href="http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=metaphysics&allowed_in_frame=0" target="_blank">http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=metaphysics&allowed_in_fra...</a><br/>
<br/>
Metaphysics<br/>
1560's plural of Middle English metaphysik, methaphesik - "branch of speculation that deals with first causes of things," from Medieval Latin metaphysica, neuter pleural of Meideval Greek (ta) metaphysika from Greek ta meta ta physika [HERE IS THE KICKER, GUYS, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ALREADY] "the (works) after the Physics", title after the 13 treatises which traditionally arranged after those on physics and natural sciences in Aristotle's writings. The name was given c70 B.C.E by Andonicus of Rhodes and was a reference to customary ordering of the books [HERE'S WHERE THE KICKING BOOT OF HISTORY CONFOUNDS THE EASILY CONFOUNDED, ie, ME] but it was misinterpreted by Latin writers as meaning "the science of what is beyond the physical" [PERHAPS SUGGESTING THE SAME OF ME THAT WHENEVER I HEAR THE WORD METAPHYSICS, I REFLEXIVELY THINK THE SCIENCE OF PHYSICS AND WHAT COMES AFTER OR IS BEYOND THAT IN SOME SEEMINGLY LOGICAL WAY.] See meta + physics...<br/>
<br/>
Oy vey - TMI? Over-sharing?<br/>
<br/>
So discard the many decades of sometimes erroneous logic and habits.<br/>
<br/>
Ambo, metaphysics simply means speculation regarding first causes! Get over it.<br/>
<br/>
Post-metaphysics to be dealt with later - apparently different people think that there needs to be acknowledged a turn, a shift, a qualitatively different signifier for a way of understanding how the world is and how it works with us possibly Post-metaphysical thinkers. Hah. One avenue we followed here f…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:594762014-12-28T06:13:12.644ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>One avenue we followed here for awhile was the speculative realist / OOO one -- which brought in the question of the epistemic fallacy, particularly whether Wilber's postmetaphysical approach was an example of it. We can talk about that if you like. But one important move of some of the OOO folks, following Roy Bhaskar, is to argue for the importance of metaphysics as a form of transcendental argumentation: asking, what must the world be like, for science (and other disciplines) to work as…</p>
<p>One avenue we followed here for awhile was the speculative realist / OOO one -- which brought in the question of the epistemic fallacy, particularly whether Wilber's postmetaphysical approach was an example of it. We can talk about that if you like. But one important move of some of the OOO folks, following Roy Bhaskar, is to argue for the importance of metaphysics as a form of transcendental argumentation: asking, what must the world be like, for science (and other disciplines) to work as they do? What are their (ontological and epistemological) conditions of possibility? These are not empirical questions, but metaphysical questions about the necessary conditions for empirical inquiry (among other things). From this point of view, the idea that 'bad metaphysics' is 'ontology without injunctions' (as I discussed in the previous post) is really inadequate...</p>
<p>And now I really probably have muddied the water. :-)</p> Hi, Ambo, this is a question…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:595392014-12-28T02:53:56.530ZBalderhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/BruceAlderman
<p>Hi, Ambo, this is a question we have circled back to numerous times on this forum. I tell you this not to complain about your bringing it up again, but to say you're in good company here: it has been a point of inquiry for us, too. <br></br><br></br>If you take metaphysics as essentially identical to ontology, the study or philosophy of being, then Tart's piece is still metaphysical in that sense, as is Wilber's. Both concern themselves with the nature of reality, or aspects of reality (such as…</p>
<p>Hi, Ambo, this is a question we have circled back to numerous times on this forum. I tell you this not to complain about your bringing it up again, but to say you're in good company here: it has been a point of inquiry for us, too. <br/><br/>If you take metaphysics as essentially identical to ontology, the study or philosophy of being, then Tart's piece is still metaphysical in that sense, as is Wilber's. Both concern themselves with the nature of reality, or aspects of reality (such as a systems ontology of consciousness, in Tart's case). <br/><br/>Post-metaphysics can mean one of at least two things: 1) a theory which is generally naturalistic and empirically grounded, avoiding especially positing supernatural (non-natural, non-empirical) entities or causal factors; and 2) a theory or philosophy which specifically attempts to avoid a particular form of metaphysics which has come under critique in the post/modern age, namely the metaphysics of presence. Wilber addresses the former by arguing that any theories about an aspect or dimension of reality that are devoid of means of helping you to confirm or disconfirm that aspect or dimension (injunctions which help you to enact that reality) are metaphysical in the 'bad' sense; and he addresses the latter with his critique of the myth of the given and the "view from nowhere" (which you're probably familiar with from his writings). The two are closely related, with the former representing something like the modern contribution (broad empiricism) and the latter representing the postmodern contribution (the reality we perceive is not simply given, as is, by nature, but is uniquely enacted or co-constructed by the subject (and the intersubjective and interobjective networks in which s/he is embedded).<br/><br/>Not sure if this clarifies or muddies the water!</p> Hi Ambo, R.Scott didn't send…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:593492014-12-28T01:39:44.607Zandrewhttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/andrew
<p>Hi Ambo, R.Scott didn't send me a refund for the stinky Prometheus so my Ka$h is going to the final Hobbit movie in short time. It sounds like Tart is describing science 2 and 3 . Studying academically interior states of being. I like his systems approach, but it seems to fall strictly within the materialist/naturalist approach; which seems to me to fall within traditional metaphysics ( the study of being). If we say that he discards ALL immaterialism or invisibility as an explanation for…</p>
<p>Hi Ambo, R.Scott didn't send me a refund for the stinky Prometheus so my Ka$h is going to the final Hobbit movie in short time. It sounds like Tart is describing science 2 and 3 . Studying academically interior states of being. I like his systems approach, but it seems to fall strictly within the materialist/naturalist approach; which seems to me to fall within traditional metaphysics ( the study of being). If we say that he discards ALL immaterialism or invisibility as an explanation for qualia , etc., then, to me, at that point, he is using post metaphysics if we define that as the abandonment of all explanations of reality that posit some type of 'supernaturalism' ( a word I am not fond of). </p>
<p>My last post in the last paragraph describes my take on things these days. The links i posted get into all kinds of metaphysical trappings, and for me, i take more of a post-mythological approach to such claims ( whether Buddhist, Christian , or Scientology, etc.)</p>
<p> Gotta run, I hope that helps a bit, but Bruce's reply would surely be more coherent. </p> Good, Andrew - I plan to read…tag:integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com,2014-12-28:5301756:Comment:594752014-12-28T00:44:56.664ZAmbo Sunohttp://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/profile/AmboSuno
<p>Good, Andrew - I plan to read these links.</p>
<p>Do you have an opinion about the quote by Charles Tart in my prior post? Is that a metaphysical exploration/explanation of his? Does it express 'metaphysical trappings' - or is it more fundamentally descriptive, hence not metaphysical?</p>
<p>Maybe you can see a little where I am hung up here. Or not :)</p>
<p>In regard to this quoted paragraph, what added into this might be 'metaphysical trappings'? And what would then turn it…</p>
<p>Good, Andrew - I plan to read these links.</p>
<p>Do you have an opinion about the quote by Charles Tart in my prior post? Is that a metaphysical exploration/explanation of his? Does it express 'metaphysical trappings' - or is it more fundamentally descriptive, hence not metaphysical?</p>
<p>Maybe you can see a little where I am hung up here. Or not :)</p>
<p>In regard to this quoted paragraph, what added into this might be 'metaphysical trappings'? And what would then turn it post-metaphysical?</p>
<p>Ok, I think I get that you are saying there is plenty of disagreement about what is post metaphysical and hence you gave me the links. Do you think there is any controversy about what is metaphysics?</p>
<p>Engage this if you like :) - thanks.</p>